Saving time and money?
| Official Luthiers Forum! http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Saving time and money http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53370 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Johnathan luke hess [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Saving time and money |
What are some general practices and approaches a beginner with little money could use to get into luthiery? In other words for more advanced and experienced builders, what a some effective and cheap methods for various parts of building process, and if you went back in time what would you have done differently starting out? Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Johnathan— First off, welcome to a fellow Mountaineer! I think the best way for you to get the kind of guidance you are looking for is to give us an assessment of your situation, other than the facts that you are new at this and you don’t have a lot of money to spend on it. What I mean is, we don’t know what tools you have or have access to, and we don’t know what skills you currently have. Personally, I think gaining knowledge is the best way to start any new endeavor, followed by jumping in and doing it imperfectly. I say it that way because a lot of new builders want to build a flawless masterpiece on their first guitar, and that’s just not realistic. In order to be good at anything, you need to be willing to be not so good at it for a while first. Do you own the Cumpiano/Natelson book on guitar making? That book emphasizes building with a minimum of power tools and specialized tools. Most of us who learned to build guitars from that book use different methods now than we did then, with more tools and jigs, but that book is (in my view) the best “first guitar” book there is. Let us know what tools and skills you have, and then folks here will have a better idea of what to recommend to you. |
|
| Author: | AndyB [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
For acoustic steel string, starting with a kit from StewMac is an excellent choice. Building a first guitar is an overwhelming experience. The kit solves some of the more challenging problems. It also reduces the number of tools required and uses some ingenious methods to form and assemble the guitar. StewMac is happy to list a wide variety of tools one can purchase from them to build the guitar. For a first guitar, not that many tools are necessary, and a variety of basic common tools can be used to get from point A to point B. Instructional book is also very good. There are three goals to building one's first guitar: 1) complete the instrument, 2) it doesn't explode when strung up, 3) one desires building a second instrument. If those three are achieved, 100% success. A kit will also help the builder achieve a decent first guitar. In fact, one can build an excellent guitar from a kit. Don't let the word "kit" be misleading. In building a kit, the first-time builder will still be up to their eyeballs in the challenge. But with guardrails. While one can read books as well, there are many techniques that are more effective than those which are in older texts. Nonetheless the books are generally informative if you decide to study the craft - it's good to know where things came from, to appreciate the present. Start with a kit, the instructions are very good, and people on the forum will provide interactive assistance, as you may require. |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Kits (particularly from StewMac or Blues Creek) are a great way to learn some of the skills without having to learn all of the skills on your first guitar, and you wind up with a good guitar when you are done. So, it is definitely one good way to go. But if you want to build more from scratch, and learn more skills in the process, it might not be the best choice. It just depends on what your goals are. |
|
| Author: | AndyB [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
I would recommend staying focused on achieving the 3 goals I mentioned above. Skills development will occur in time, over repetition. It's the only way we know how to learn. Unless one is a highly skilled woodworker, a kit will keep one engaged and up to one's eyeballs in learning! |
|
| Author: | Johnathan luke hess [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Thank you all. Very helpful. Is there a specific kit anyone would recommend in terms of skill and money spent? I have no preference just interested in building steel strings Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
If the sides are wider than necessary for the guitar, you can make binding strips from the offcuts for use on future guitars. After thinning them down, plane one edge straight, cut a strip, plane the edge straight again, cut another strip, until you get down to the target width. This way each binding strip will have one perfect edge for gluing whenever you get to using them in the future. If you like bound fingerboards, you can also harvest strips from over-wide backs, and from fingerboard blanks before slotting. A handy trick for routers to blow away chips while you work: Take a strip of masking tape about 2" x 1/4" and wrap it onto the bit above the cutting part so it sticks out to the side, and then give it a twist so it functions as a single-blade fan pushing air downward as the router bit spins. The iGaging 36" graduated straightedge is great multi-purpose tool. Used for measuring straightness of various things, drafting designs, marking fret slot locations, locating the bridge, and the back edge of it makes a nice guide for slicing veneers and such with an x-acto knife. Speaking of drafting designs, I just tape 4 sheets of typing paper together to make a large enough space for the body, or 8 sheets if I need to do the neck as well. If you place the tape bits carefully, it will fold up without crimping the paper edges. It will also lay flatter than a full size paper that has been rolled up, and takes up less storage space. For templates, I tape more papers together and trace the plan, and cut it out with scissors. It takes a little more care to trace around a paper template on the wood than it does with a masonite or plexiglass one, but it's so much faster to make, and again folds up for convenient storage. Then to make bending patterns, tape more papers together and trace around the template. Check both edges of the side against the pattern as you bend it to make sure it's square. The pattern will wear out over time due to getting water on it while bending and checking, but it only takes a minute to make a new one if you ever need to. My bending iron is an electric charcoal starter squashed with a vise to fit inside a scrap of 3" pipe from the local muffler shop, which is mounted to a piece of wood using four L brackets and some nuts and bolts and screws. I bought a dimmer switch to control the temperature, but in practice I find it easier to simply plug and unplug it periodically when it gets too hot or too cold (you'll develop a sense for it pretty quick). I should have built a humidity control box long before I did. Mine is fairly elaborate with a 60W light bulb in the bottom for decreasing RH by raising the temperature, but it turns out that simply sticking a $25 mini dehumidifier in there works best. Nut slot files are nice to have, but a knife style needle file will do the job. The slots for the plain steel strings may come out a little oversize, but they work just fine. Don't buy cheap reamers. |
|
| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Yes, there are some good books and kits out there, but I strongly believe the fastest way to get launched is to take a hands-on course. Your objective in a course should go beyond making a guitar; you want to learn about guitar building — not quite the same thing. I suggest a group course, rather than one-on-one, as you’ll see more mistakes avoided and solved than you could possibly do otherwise and the dynamic can transfer a huge amount of theoretical and practical knowledge in a short time. If I hadn’t taken a course, I would have built a guitar on my own, but I’m not sure i would have continued. Courses are easier to find than they were — of course COVID is having an impact for the moment. My two shillings. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | George L [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Saving time and money?
|
|
| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
You tube is your friend - there are a lot of "how to" videos and builders showing their processes from which you can glean some information and adapt their methods to your own situation. Building with local materials can save a lot of money. Guitars have been built out of many different hardwoods -cherry, walnut, oak, maple, birch, and many other domestic woods can make fine instruments. If you don't have the tools for resawing you may be able to find a local wood worker who does, and will be willing to do that for you for a reasonable fee.Soundboard material can be sourced from lumberyard "dimensional" lumber, but the soundboard is a critical element and good quality "A" or "AA" grade soundboards can be had from the suppliers at the top of the page. Making your own tools can be another way to save money. My first bending iron was a propane torch stuck in an artillery shell. Using common household tools in place of specialized lutherie tools by using them as they are, or making slight modifications to them can also save money. A common claw hammer can be used to set frets, and end nippers can be used in place of fret cutting pliers, and by filing the cutting face flush they can nip the wire flush to the fretboard. There are a number of tools that can be made or bought for much less than you will find them at the luthier suppliers. You might consider building a dulcimer or ukulele as a first project. It will teach you most of the same processes for building a guitar, but will take less time and materials, and people accept a little less "fit and finish" on them - and they are fun instruments to play. I would second the Cumpiano/Natelson " Guitarmaking,Tradition and Technology" book as a good resource and building guide. You will find many money saving tips in their methods and they have a thorough treatment for building both steel string and classical guitars in an affordably priced book. |
|
| Author: | Pat Foster [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
For your first, whatever method/book/instructions you use stick to just one. Mixing and matching can get you in trouble later on, especially if it has to do with neck/ body geometry. Good luck! |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
George L wrote: Saving time and money? How do you make a small fortune from building guitars? Well, you start with a large fortune . . . |
|
| Author: | Colin North [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
doncaparker wrote: George L wrote: Saving time and money? How do you make a small fortune from building guitars? Well, you start with a large fortune . . . Somebody had to say it. |
|
| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Clay S. wrote: You tube is your friend - there are a lot of "how to" videos and builders showing their processes from which you can glean some information and adapt their methods to your own situation. Unfortunately, YouTube is the epitome of unfiltered information. Of some use for those with the filter of experience or training, but downright dangerous for others. Of course, Internet forums run a close second. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | AndyB [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Johnathan luke hess wrote: Thank you all. Very helpful. Is there a specific kit anyone would recommend in terms of skill and money spent? I have no preference just interested in building steel strings https://www.stewmac.com/kits-and-projects/instrument-kits/acoustic-guitar-kits/stewmac-om-acoustic-guitar-kit.html OM kit is a safe down-the-middle choice. I'd recommend bolt-on neck, Sitka top, and either Mahogany or Rosewood for back and sides. No point in using a pre-made dovetail on your first guitar - bolt on is easier to do and service, and there is no downside. Sitka top is straight down the middle, I would not recommend torrefied for a first build, again keep things simple. If you prefer 12 fret to the body and a little more work in the slot headstock, you can look at the StewMac Triple-0 kit. Or if you are a bluegrass guy, you can check out their Dreadnought kit. Same option recommendations as above. |
|
| Author: | windsurfer [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Best way to save time and money is to take your time and be carefull. |
|
| Author: | Jim Watts [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Build your as many of own tools, fixtures and jigs as you can. It's also good experience. |
|
| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Lots of good ideas. Denis has some ideas I never though of. I made violins first, so looking into guitars it seemed like everyone used giant powered machines. That said, some guys I know who make violins built their own CNC machines. WHY? Everyone is different. I like doing things by hand. My wife also says that I don't do anything the normal way. Must be the way my head works. The only specialty tool I can think of that you REALLY need is a bending iron. I used to bend violin ribs on an aluminum form I made that I heated with a heat gun. The form was actually better than the cheap Chinese one I bought. The second gun I bought didn't hold up to it. I need a guitar one. Most would consider a router or laminate trimmer to be essential, but it just makes it easier. You can make a purfling groove marker/cutter to do binding. I would say that a Dremel, or maybe that trimmer/router with some kind of a radius cutting fixture makes rose channels, and sound hole cutting easy. So I guess you need something for that. Sides, tops and back can be planed and scraped to thickness. It is fun to do too, if you're weird like me. It also makes chips and not dust, and the surface is nice, but it will still need to be scraped after bending and gluing and binding. You can laminate the neck to make a truss rod channel, but that is easier to do if you have a thickness planer to get the width right. So I guess it's the trimmer/router. I just have the Dremel. Building on the belly Spanish style free form allows you freedom; if you can handle that; and you don't need bulky forms. But you will need a go-bar deck and a solera. I don't have those yet either. |
|
| Author: | SnowManSnow [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Go YouTube and look up John’s videos ... hard to go wrong there. BluesCreek Guitar:) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Ken Nagy wrote: Sides, tops and back can be planed and scraped to thickness. It is fun to do too, if you're weird like me. It also makes chips and not dust, and the surface is nice, but it will still need to be scraped after bending and gluing and binding. I always hear about this "chips not dust" thing, yet I always wind up coated in fine powder by the time it's done... and blowing wood-colored boogers if I don't wear a dust mask. But yes, thicknessing is quite enjoyable if you can get your plane super sharp. I struggled until I coughed up the money for some 8x3" DMT Dia-sharp stones (extra-extra-coarse and extra-extra-fine). It was money well spent. Especially the XXC, which is coarse enough to sand wood. Great for perfecting joint surfaces. Quote: Building on the belly Spanish style free form allows you freedom; if you can handle that; and you don't need bulky forms. But you will need a go-bar deck and a solera. I don't have those yet either. That reminds me, another of my most favorite and versatile tools is my stack of cam clamps. Two 8", four 6", and three 4". They are good for clamping glued things (such as braces, which I do without a form, as shown in the Cumpiano book) as well as general workholding. Even just sticking a clamp on the workpiece can be very helpful, so you can hold the clamp and keep your fingers out of the danger zone when carving. Or stick one or more clamps on the workpiece and then use two more to clamp to the bench and you have an instant vise  I also construct a temporary saddle slotting jig out of them and whatever straight piece of wood I can find lying around.
|
|
| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
First off if you are trying to give a go at this as in making a living then good luck  The very first thing I would suggest spending time and money on is building a controlled shop. This could be an out building dedivcated to it or a bedroom in your house. "Dedicated" is the operative word. A band saw is a must, so you need that. A big bandsaw that can resaw lumber can pay off in the long run. I would always recommend that anyone learn to thin plates by hand first but if you plan on building 20 or more guitars then a drum sander is a huge time saver. The only big-ish power tools I use are a drum sander, band saw, bench top drill press and a bench top belt sander. And the only reason I use those is because they are HUGE time savers. |
|
| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
^^^ What Mr McKenna said. I first built an insulated, vapor sealed workshop to control humidity and keep it warm cheaply. Then converted another shed to a small finishing shop as I needed to improve my finishes. Same machinery list, but good small 10" band-saw and a large belt sander, same reasons. But, you can start with very little, in not too much space. Hands tools can do most things very well if you develop the skills. Persistence, patience and resilience go a long way. If you can afford a kit at $500 + tools, great. If not, I seem to recall for example one poster on here who cut up an old piano soundboard for a 4 piece top, sawing up wood by hand for back and sides, and built a very nice guitar for a first build on a table, all with hand tools. |
|
| Author: | Clay S. [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
When it comes to hand tools, flea markets and (sometimes) eBay can be a good source for good deals. On several occasions I have found vintage Stanley and Sargent hand planes for under $10, T.H.Witherby and PS&W chisels for under $5 and a multitude of small, odd, and sometimes useful tools for a buck. Much of the work can be done in ambient conditions, but several operations require humidity control. Finding a cabinet big enough to hold a guitar body and installing a heat source is what many people do. Alternatively you can do glue ups when the indoor humidity conditions are right (usually in the cooler months). In either case an inexpensive but reliable hygrometer should be used to monitor the relative humidity. |
|
| Author: | Johnathan luke hess [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
[quote="jfmckenna"]First off if you are trying to give a go at this as in making a living then good luck I'm curious as to what you and others might mean by this. I currently work a warehouse job and make decent money for my age. I work 3×12 shifts so I have 4 free days to work with. My realistic hope is that I can make enough money selling guitars that my main job is only a resource of health insurance. I'm somewhat comfortable financially but working in a warehouse environment is psychologically draining. I'm hoping to do work on something that means something to me and I love music. Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saving time and money |
Johnathan luke hess wrote: jfmckenna wrote: First off if you are trying to give a go at this as in making a living then good luck I'm curious as to what you and others might mean by this. I currently work a warehouse job and make decent money for my age. I work 3×12 shifts so I have 4 free days to work with. My realistic hope is that I can make enough money selling guitars that my main job is only a resource of health insurance. I'm somewhat comfortable financially but working in a warehouse environment is psychologically draining. I'm hoping to do work on something that means something to me and I love music. Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk It's very difficult to be a professional luthier. Most of us are hobbyists and do it for the love of it and make maybe a few thousand a year. I tried to do it for real back in the 90's and I stayed afloat by doing repairs. That's almost essential to treat this as a full time business. At the time I was doing repairs for 5 music stores in my area. Life was good until the Internet basically closed all the shops. I was able to continue just by word of mouth but eventually I quit and went back into the work force. I still do repairs and build but only becasue it's a passion. It definitely helps pay the bills and support some of my other hobbies and to afford a nice vacation once in a while. But it's tough. What you might want to consider is taking some business classes. It's torture but it might help. Business, accounting, fiances, tax laws, marketing and so on are important to understand. Having 4 days off in a row is really nice. But my recommendation, don't just jump into it. If you look at every successful luthier out there they are successful for two reasons, one they are very talented at what they do and two they got their name out. That's why I bolded marketing. Another thing to consider is you will probably need to build at least ten guitars before you can sell one. IF you can save your pennies it would aslo be a real good start if you find a reputable luthier school and attend it. |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|