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| Author: | Fire frogs [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | British timbers |
Hi everyone, I’m new here  I’m looking at building a few acoustic guitars and Spanish style guitars too. I want to do the whole build only using native British timbers. The back and sides won’t cause any issues but what would be a good substitute for spruce or cedar ? I’m thinking pear ! I would love some thoughts in this please. Thanks |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Pearwood is a bit dense so it would make a guitar sound very different. People often compare it to Cherry but it's even a bit denser. Anything can be done though that's for sure. But I would suggest looking into some of the pines that might grow there. Of course when you say "British" maybe you could find something interesting from an afar territory. But there in the UK I'd imagine there are some native pines? PEar makes for a great back/side wood though. |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | British timbers |
Welcome to the group! Your desire to use “only native British timbers” excludes many species commonly grown in the UK, but not truly indigenous, so really quite limiting. As far as I know, the only pear that is native is the Plymouth pear — a small tree, rare and protected, at least in some parts. Native conifers are very limited — no spruce and pines limited to P. sylvestris. If you could broaden your criteria to include species and cultivars established in the UK, your list will offer many more options, including Norway and Sitka spruce. You will still have the challenge to identify British processors who have suitable material in stock! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | A.Hix [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
An all quartersawn English oak acoustic could be cool.. A bit heavy for the soundboard, but workable if done right.. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
London Plane may be a soundboard possibility. Looking at density vs stiffness on wooddatabase anyway. |
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| Author: | Fire frogs [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Hmmmmm....l I think I may have to broaden my thinking a little because like Tim mulling said I’m very limited to indigenous trees so will probably have to go for trees that can grow in the uk. What’s your thoughts apart from spruce and cedar? |
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| Author: | Bob Orr [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Colin North wrote: London Plane may be a soundboard possibility. Looking at density vs stiffness on wooddatabase anyway. I have used quarter sawn London Plane (lacewood) on several ukes and they sound great. I have also used bog oak for a bridge and fingerboard on my latest 000. Back and sides on this were quarter sawn English oak. Bob Attachment: DSC_1140 (640x512).jpg
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| Author: | Colin North [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Fire frogs wrote: Hmmmmm....l I think I may have to broaden my thinking a little because like Tim mulling said I’m very limited to indigenous trees so will probably have to go for trees that can grow in the uk. What’s your thoughts apart from spruce and cedar? Redwood, Sitka, Norwegian spruce, Douglas fir all grow here. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Redwood and Sitka in the UK? I never would have guessed that. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
As it turns out, if you test their structural/acoustic properties, all softwoods turn out to be pretty similar. In particular, if you plot the value of the Young's modulus along the grain against the density, they all tend to fall on the same line. Young's modulus is the primary thing that determines the bending stiffness; two pieces of wood that have the same Young's modulus along the grain with have the same bending stiffness at a given thickness. The problem with guitars is that we have so little energy in a plucked string to use to make sound. With a such a small 'engine' you have to keep the top light to get a useful amount of power out. Soft woods and hard woods tend to have surprisingly similar Young's moduli along the grain, but the soft woods are usually less dense, and make lighter tops. Several of my students have used American White Pine for soundboards, and they have worked well. I would imagine the local pine you have would work as well. Pine tends to have more resin channels that spruce, so it's a bit harder to get it to finish up nicely. It also tends to have a softer surface than spruce: it dents more easily, and you have to be careful with that. Still, it's no worse the Western red cedar in that respect, and the pine I've run into has been much less prone to splitting than cedar. I'm not sure how big yew gets: I have seen some pics of guitars with yew B&S, but they may have pieced the backs. You can do that for a top, of course, but it's a drag if it's more than three or four pieces. I've used North American oak for a number of guitars, and it has worked well. I've only used English oak once, and not for an instrument, but I suspect it will work nicely. About twenty-five years ago I made a pair of classical guitars using oak for one and Brazilian rosewood for the other. I tried to match them up as well as I knew how at the time, and they ended up sounding surprisingly similar. Most of the sound is in the top, after all, and they both had similar spruce tops. Fruit wood is often a good substitute for mahogany for necks and back bracing. I tend to use cherry, since we have it around here, but some soft apple would work well. Yes, its an import, but, far from a recent one. Ditto walnut. Plane/linden would also be a good one for neck wood. Willow makes good blocks and liners: Strad used it in violins, and I often use willow on guitars. It might even work for a soundboard wood: I've made small harps that way. The only real issue for a guitar soundboard is that willow tends to 'cold creep' much more than most soft woods, and it might distort over the long term under the bridge load. The hardest thing to replace is ebony. Boxwood is hard and close grained, but shows the dirt more. Beech might work well, but you'd want to stain it. |
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| Author: | profchris [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
I made a tenor guitar with a two piece yew top, which sounds gorgeous and is plenty loud. I had to use the sapwood, which is about as hard as the heartwood, and the overall effect is very pleasing. I can't work yew any more, sadly, I've become sensitised to it. Wide yew boards seem to come from the West country. For fingerboards, hornbeam would be worth a try - dense and hard, needs dyeing. Field maple would make backs and sides, though it doesn't grow big. I'm planning to speak to my firewood man this winter to see if he can get me some lengths of each, which I'll season and process myself. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
I have used White Oak for fretboards and bridges. It can be ebonized to look like ebony. So far it seems to hold frets well. I glue frets in with Fish Glue. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
jfmckenna wrote: Redwood and Sitka in the UK? I never would have guessed that. Half of the commercial plantations in UK are Sitka, Sequoia/redwood was imported some time ago and they grow big in some parts of the west coast of Scotland. |
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| Author: | Fire frogs [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
I’ve used plenty of yew for other woodworking project. I love the stuff! The feel and with a nice finish the grain really pops. I’ve never used used it for anything guitar related so not sure what it would sound like as a top? It sounds like it could be interesting though. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
When I read this title in my head it sounds like..... arrrrgh, me British timbers!!! Anyway, sounds like a cool project. I have a similar 00 that’s been going for a while now. It’s all Appalachian from the states surrounding my home in Ohio. I’m still watching for the right 16/4 billet of black walnut so I can send it to Andy Birko to turn it into a neck, but the box is closed. Black walnut B&S from Ohio and Red spruce braces and top from Don’s stomping grounds of West By God Virginia. Hopefully I said it right that time.  Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
British timbers made me think of "The Larch" skit from Monty Python's Flying Circus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcTXBhYzfM Also, larch is a conifer grown in Britain. I have a couple top sets of North American larch that are very nice that I'm looking forward to using. Maybe that would be another option for you as a top wood. |
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| Author: | Fire frogs [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Hmmm, larch. I’ve not even given larch a thought. The aesthetics would certainly be interesting. I know very little about larch. How easy is it to work with and finish? |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Fire frogs wrote: Hmmm, larch. I’ve not even given larch a thought. The aesthetics would certainly be interesting. I know very little about larch. How easy is it to work with and finish? ome info here https://www.wood-database.com/european-larch/ Interestingly ammonia fuming works well to darken larch, but it looks much too soft for fretboards. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Interestingly, there is a natural hybrid of two larches, neither native to Britain, but which was first observed growing in Scotland. Perhaps the “Dunkeld Larch” could be worthy of consideration for a soundboard. https://conifersociety.org/conifers/larix-marschlinsii/ |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Your difficulty will be obtaining a suitable soundboard wood. Actually it's not the wood species that is the problem but the quality of cut. Very little of it is milled to our requirements, so if you are looking for a fairly straight grained quarter sawn softwood it will require a bit of hunting down. Maybe someone like Dyke or Timberline will be able to help with that. I'm fairly sure that a reasonable amount of Douglas Fir was planted in Scotland in the late 19 th century. You may not get tight grain, you may have to use a 3 or even a 4 piece top but such things never stopped Torres. No problem with any of the requirements for back/sides, neck or fretboard. I've used British yew, walnut, cherry and maple for back/sides - all sourced from Dyke or Timberline. For the fretboard and bridge I use bog oak. Pretty hard to tell it apart from ebony if you fill the grain. Not cheap but nor is it any more expensive than a very good grade of ebony. Cherry, maple or walnut for the neck. |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | British timbers |
Colin North wrote: jfmckenna wrote: Redwood and Sitka in the UK? I never would have guessed that. Half of the commercial plantations in UK are Sitka. This is true, although Sitka planting wasn’t significant until the late ‘60s when interest was generated by the IUFRO (International Union of Forestry Research Organisations) range-wide seed source trials that demonstrated exceptional early growth in the UK. It is now by far the most-commonly planted forest tree species, with the UK self-sufficient in producing its own genetically improved material (the previous head forest geneticist for the Commission is a career-long friend — he retired a year before me). Norway spruce, another exotic, is the other important plantation species and played a major role in UK forestry since the 1800s. Good seed sources for the UK were identified by IUFRO trials in the 1930s and the UK is self-sufficient in producing improved material. As it’s been widely planted longer than Sitka, it should be much easier to source Norway spruce of suitable dimensions and age for milling soundboard material. (Yes, this is Picea abies, the exact same spruce sold variably as “German”, “Alpine”, “Swiss”, “Euro”, etc., depending on the whim of the seller.) When planted in UK, both these spruces escape attack from white pine shoot weevil that just hammers our plantations below 5-6 meters in North America. Lucky you! Scots pine is truly a native of the UK and has been used for lots of European-made guitars, but it is a “hard pine” with very distinct latewood (think late-20th century Ikea “solid pine” furniture — same stuff). The closest equivalent in North America would be jack or lodgepole pine. Generally not considered “guitar wood” by North American builders based solely on appearance If the constraints have been relaxed to include naturalised species, the so-called English walnut (Juglans regia) is an obvious candidate. “So-called” because it’s actually an introduced species. It’s been the preferred wood for British shotgun makers for decades. You also also have tons of what you would probably call “sycamore” (known to North Americans as “sycamore maple” - a “true” maple). Again, a naturalised British timber, but plentiful and can be beautifully figured). As someone else suggested, the European hornbeam is not only a UK native, it has the desired hardness for fingerboards, but tends to be quite light in colour. Google has several hits for tonewood dealers in the UK. I’m sure most would respond well to your request that wood be grown in the UK, even though I imagine many have inventory from other countries. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Redwoods, forest near Ullapool on the west coast of Scotland. Some were blown down in a big storm several years ago. |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | British timbers |
Colin North wrote: Redwoods, forest near Ullapool on the west coast of Scotland. Some were blown down in a big storm several years ago. Well, that tree should be sufficient for a few guitar tops, but not the same species as the “redwood” best known to guitar makers. Coastal redwood is very important for timber (and tonewood) in its large natural range, whereas the close relative, giant sequoia is no longer important for timber in the US, and has a much smaller distribution, much of it protected on US Federal land. Scottish botanist David Douglas took both species (along with Douglas-fir) throughout the British empire. I’ve seen both trialed in NZ (along with the third redwood, “dawn redwood”), but only coastal redwood became broadly accepted for plantation forestry. All three redwoods are in the Cypress family (together with guitar favourite, western redcedar), but taxonomically different genera. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
Scotland is on my bucket list of places to visit. Not gonna happen this summer though  But what a beautiful country!
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: British timbers |
JF-- My wife and I spent 2 weeks touring Scotland in the summer of 2013. It was during a rare sunny heat wave, and Andy Murray won at Wimbledon. So, everybody was in a great mood. It was a fantastic trip. We just about went from one end to the other: Iona, the border with England, the Orkney Islands, and lots in between. Colin lives in a wonderful place, chock full of castles, lakes, mountains, fairy pools, obscene Viking graffiti, and much more. If you go post-Covid, I can recommend a small van (about a dozen passengers) tour company for really seeing everything: Rabbie's Tours. It was the perfect size for us. |
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