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Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53240		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Wed May 20, 2020 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Hybrid might be the wrong word, as it may mean some specific that I don't intend. I have been pretty hardcore with my recent (the last ten years) Flamenco's, building them at 2.5 lb and carving my own tuning pegs for them as the scale of viola pegs looks all wrong to me. Mainly, mine have bigger grips and an aesthetic more guitar like than violin like. Sadly, buyers are terrified by the prospect of learning to use friction tuners and are for the most part unwilling to even try, at least while I'm looking. So, by "hybrid", I mean I am going to use commercial geared tuners. Yes, I know that has long been the standard, but I have resisted.

This will be a traditional Spanish style build, to the best of my understanding, though you may discover I have some funny ideas.

I cut this Madrone tree in Monte Rio, perhaps 50 mile north of my shop and not far from Guerneville on the Russian River. That happened 20 years ago, and the wood has been in the shed since. Technically, it's been ready to use for most of that time, but since up till now it has been important to be able to actually sell my guitars, I have been reticent to use it. While I still like to bask in the glow of a guitar sale, I don't NEED it to happen immediately, and so I have joined up and thicknessed a four piece Madrone back.

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Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed May 20, 2020 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Your timbers look nice.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Wed May 20, 2020 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I'm looking forward to watching this. Having lived in the Northwest most of my life, madrone trees are one my favorites. I have two madrone back an side sets that also come from northern California. The tree was so big that the back plates are big enough to make two-piece backs. My plan is to build two steel string guitars using only West Coast woods, with the exception of the fretboard (unless I can find a suitable native wood for that).

What wood do you plan to use for the top?
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu May 21, 2020 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Mesquite might make a nice fretboard.
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Thu May 21, 2020 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I used to admire the arbutus??madrone tress in bc oregon wa and ca, . But have never seen them used for a set of B/S. Very Nice!.For a FB in the usa. there is desert Ironwood, if u can find a piece, or persimmon. , which moves and checks quite a bit. and Hornbeam
Author:  George L [ Thu May 21, 2020 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Building for pleasure while exploring the use of alternative woods? This is my kind of thread. Lead the way, boss!

Arbutus menziesii are finicky about the conditions in which they'll grow. I've managed to get three to take root in my backyard and they seem to be happy. Only time will tell ... and it's going to take a while. If the trees survive, the next owner of our home will inherit a lovely copse of these native beauties.
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
This guitar is not going to be an attempt to use only domestic woods, let alone only local woods. Flamenco guitars are traditionally made from cheap local materials to keep the price down. The price must be low enough for the Gypsies to afford to buy the guitar, otherwise they will steal it. So goes the old joke.

I haven’t chosen the top yet, but it won’t be Sitka or Engelmann. I do have chunks of Madrone that could be used for the neck, and I’ll consider it. I spoil myself on the playing surface every time, and it is hard to beat ebony; perhaps the worst piece in my locker will do in the spirit of the thing. My worst will be quite acceptable to any player.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu May 21, 2020 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I used those geared 'friction pegs' made by Pegheds and rather liked them. I'm sure you have come across them but just in case:

http://www.pegheds.com/
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Thu May 21, 2020 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I've seen those pegs, and I think I have set somewhere, but they do not look right to me as compared to my friction pegs. Once a lack of confidence is overcome, my pegs are a dream to tune with. Sadly, convincing an under confident buyer of this is beyond challenging. In the buyer's defense (sort of), one must have EARS to use pegs effectively.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Thu May 21, 2020 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Although I've never had problems with properly fit pegs, apparently a lot of people have. An interesting 19th century patent for an improved peg using a larger diameter taper for better control over tuning was granted to James Ashborn. I've played Ashborn guitars and banjos fitted with this type of peg, and they do work as advertised.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ff/61/9b/a2b59fcb56654f/US9268-drawings-page-1.png

Here's a reproduction by banjo maker James Hartel:

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Dave
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu May 21, 2020 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I used fiddle pegs on my "Formica blanca" hommage to Torres (the back and sides are a prefinished wood veneer bonded to HPL - techno paper mache). I haven't found them to be particularly onerous to use.It has become the shop guitar that I can pick up while I'm waiting for things to dry.
Jay mentioned he was interested in building a guitar with left coast woods which is why I suggested mesquite as a possible fretboard material.

I've been thinking about adding a metal pin (nail) to the top of a wooden friction peg to reduce the diameter the string winds around and allow for finer tuning.
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Mon May 25, 2020 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I have heard many times that Adi is too much structure for a Nylon strung guitar, but it seems to me its dry tone would be just the thing for what I want to hear. Less structure should do the trick. I chose a relatively colorful specimen for this guitar:

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Author:  bobgramann [ Mon May 25, 2020 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
If you can find any out there, Osage Orange makes a nice, hard, stable fretboard. I would expect Black Locust to do so as well, although I haven’t tried it yet for that use.
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Tue May 26, 2020 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
I have a few Osage Orange BnS sets, but the stuff is very uninspiring, and unless someone asks for it I doubt I’ll get around to using it. Hard to beat ebony for a fingerboard, though I have used several other materials that were adequate. Most bring too much visual character.
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Sat May 30, 2020 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Here's the rosette I made for this guitar. Yesterday I cut 33 3/8" long S logos from Cuban Mahogany (broke 2) and today I inlaid them in black CA matrix.

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Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat May 30, 2020 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
The rosette looks great Bruce.


Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
Author:  Bri [ Sat May 30, 2020 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Ssssssssweet!

B
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Sat May 30, 2020 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Thanksssss, folksssss.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sat May 30, 2020 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Very cool idea for the rosette! I admire the patience it must have taken to cut out that many Ss.
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Yesterday, I chose a neck blank and sawed out the profile. I have hoped I had a piece of Madrone to use, but the widest stock was 2" and I don't want to deal with laminating up the blank, so Honduran mahogany.Made the fingerboard yesterday from ebony, and bound it. I went with 646mm scale.

Today, the top in is the go-bar deck receiving soundhole reinforcement and both transverse braces. I have inlaid two 1/8 x 7/16 strips of carbon-fiber into the neck, cut the slots to receive the sides, and created the (modest) foot.

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Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Bracing is in:

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Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
And the end blocks, one of which is the neck, are glued on:

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Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
The first side is bent and trimmed to fit. As you see, I do not cleve to the general lutherie community's obsession with molds. A lot of fuss and bother and a serious constraint on creativity for my POV. The FoxBender many of us use makes symmetry much less elusive.

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Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Bruce , Hi , question, why do you use a winged upper transverse brace ?. Some use a rgid transverse upper brace and then a small maple veneer under the FB footprint e, g, fleta ?? TNX , very interesting top bracing plan !
Author:  Bruce Sexauer [ Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Madrone Flamenco Hybrid.
Ernie Kleinman wrote:
Bruce , Hi , question, why do you use a winged upper transverse brace ?. Some use a rgid transverse upper brace and then a small maple veneer under the FB footprint e, g, fleta ?? TNX , very interesting top bracing plan !


It is part clamping caul, and part upper bout killer. I view resonance in the upper bout wings as undesirable as it is a potential contributor to uneven response. As in "wolf". My fan braces, but the way, are quite delicate as a hedge against the rather robust Adi top. The finger braces are a nod to what I have (I think I have) learned in SS construction re treble acuity.
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