Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Fret leveling and dressing?

I will be as honest as I can
NO WAY
I don't care how long your building. You will have to level and redress frets. If you don't you will never
have a guitar that will meet its full potential.

Fret work not only refines the levelness of the frets, but it also makes them smooth and glossy, with a hand worked appearance that undressed frets will never have. Also, the fret ends also get rounded over to make them easy on the hands. I would do this work for this purpose alone.

Leveling the frets along the string pathways also gives a micro-compound shape to the fretboard which undressed frets do not have.

Bottom line is don't be tempted to take shortcuts here. Just because the factories don't do it doesn't mean we shouldn't either.

Author:	Michaeldc [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Fret leveling and dressing?
Who of you are able to install your frets so perfectly that leveling and dressing isn't required. Thanks, M

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
I'm usually able to get them to the point where the levelling takes off so little as to not require recrowning/dressing... Once in a while I'll get a flyaway where I have to do the whole nine yards and it really ticks me off.

Author:	Chris Pile [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
I can do it. Most of the time. Guitars are fickle, you know.

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
That's a relative question. One of our students had built over 300 guitars prior and didn't have any problem with what he was doing fret wise for acoustic guitars with finger style or flat picking action. These days he credits what he learned from us with dramatically upping his game so that now he can provide very low action to anyone who can play very low action, not everyone can. I'll add that in my experience doing this professionally day in and day out MOST folks want low action. Mario wrote an excellent article around 12 years ago in one of the mags that they forgot to put his name on the article... in which he describes his methodology for fretting the board off the neck. He uses a press and the board is jigged up in such a way to compensate for the fret tang compression. His methodology is so tight and refined that he's the only one that Dave and I believe can do decent fret work fretting the board off the neck. It also depends on if your question is in respect to fretting the board on the neck, neck on the guitar or not. Why it matters is the very act of installing the board on the neck, fretted and/or the neck on the guitar, fretted creates imperfections that can impact the fret plane such as body joint humps, ski ramps, etc. Back to your question. With our methods all the heavy lifting of leveling, creating relief where we want it and eliminating it where we don't is done at the board level on the finished instrument. With this said when we install frets they are usually just a kiss with the leveling beam away from where we want them. By the way where we want them is not necessarily level. Our fret jobs have relief less on the treble side, more on the bass side milled into the fret plane, fall away is present and around .010" - .015" and the entire fret plane now has a compound radius. Nothing level about what our results are but it all is engineered to be what the vibrating strings, natural straight edges if you will want to see. In summary it's pretty easy to bang in frets for cowboy chord players with mediums but it's not so easy for the shredder or jazz player with various attacks, drop tunings, seven strings, etc. when they want low action. Question for you if I may please? What's wrong with having to level things or even just check things with a leveling beam after the frets are in? It only takes a minute and is good, cheap insurance so you know you do not have any high frets.

Author:	bluescreek [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
I have been building for 20 yrs. There will always be some leveling. Even a .001 can be an issue. prepping the fretboard , can't be stressed enough. The frets may net be the proplem humidity , often the neck block swelling so always level and dress. your guitar will thank you for it.

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Author:	Greg Maxwell [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
I agree with John. Always.

Author:	Michaeldc [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
Thanks for the responses, Hess wrote: Question for you if I may please? What's wrong with having to level things or even just check things with a leveling beam after the frets are in? It only takes a minute and is good, cheap insurance so you know you do not have any high frets. There is nothing wrong with it. I'm to the point where I could almost get away without giving the frets a little additional love after installation, but I do it anyway and usually find an issue or two. The reason for the question is I've got a new builder friend (3 instruments in) who was under the impression a light level and dress was unnecessary on a well prepped board. In theory, he's right. Not knowing for sure, I figured I'd ask the OLF crew. Best, M

Author:	jfmckenna [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
It might be good to look for reason as to why you have to level. Either a fret is not seated all the way or you went to hard and dented the wood a bit. Assuming of course your slots are deep enough and clear of debris. Pressing them in is probably a bit more accurate then hammering but even then you can press to hard or too soft. Over the years I've gotten better at it but have never been able to not dress them. I'm not sure anyone can claim that they can unless like Hesh said it's for a high action blue grass or classical guitar. Even then I'd still want to dress the frets.

Author:	doncaparker [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
Like a lot of things, the imperfections in the process of getting to the installed frets stage can accumulate and cause more need for fret leveling, or less if you minimize those imperfections as you go. I like gluing the unfretted fretboard to the neck, then installing the neck (with fretboard) onto the body, then getting serious about arching and leveling the fretboard after all the gluing has been done. From a well prepped fretboard, installing the frets with the best quality control you can achieve (whether hammering or pressing) makes it less likely that fret leveling will be needed. But even if you go the opposite way on all of this, you can still get a good fret job out of it. It just means a lot more leveling. Hopefully there is enough fret height to work with, if none of the care outlined above is taken before that stage.

Author:	Michaeldc [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
Hi Gang, My OP was asking if anyone here was able to fret an instrument without any leveling of the frets after installation. So far I'm seeing that even the best of the pros do at least a little tweaking. Cheers

Author:	Chris Pile [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
It's called playing it smart. It's wise to at least check and see if you did a good job. Frankly, in a complete fret job it won't take 20 minutes to run a file lightly down the fretboard to see how level the frets are. I always polish the frets out anyway, so what's a few extra minutes to check? If you got them dead nuts flat, give yourself a pat on the back, and drive on - because the next time the guitar might have other ideas. This ain't rocket surgery.

Author:	Pmaj7 [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
But then again..... How would you know if you didn't need any leveling? I usually check with a .002 gage. I'm pretty confident that I can do it without any .002 gaps, but you don't really find the smaller ones until you ink'm and hit'm. Pat

Author:	SteveSmith [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
I used to think I did a good job pressing my frets in on new builds - seemed pretty darn level to me and they were pretty good, probably about as good as most high-end factory guitars. Then I went up to Ann Arbor and spent a few days with Dave and Hesh. Now all of my fret jobs get leveled and dressed and my fretwork is better for it. There's a measurable difference between pretty good and excellent. Given the amount of time we spend building a guitar it just doesn't make sense not to do it.

Author:	bluescreek [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
I will be as honest as I can NO WAY I don't care how long your building. You will have to level and redress frets. If you don't you will never have a guitar that will meet its full potential.

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Author:	Hesh [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
bluescreek wrote: I will be as honest as I can NO WAY I don't care how long your building. You will have to level and redress frets. If you don't you will never have a guitar that will meet its full potential. Nailed it!

Author:	Michaeldc [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
bluescreek wrote: I will be as honest as I can NO WAY I don't care how long your building. You will have to level and redress frets. If you don't you will never have a guitar that will meet its full potential. Thanks John, That was the answer I was ultimately expecting. No matter what, there will be some leveling and such. Cheers, Michael

Author:	doncaparker [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
Beating a dead horse (whap, whap, whap!!!)--Definitely, some leveling will need to be done no matter what. But the better the process leading up to that point, the less leveling that will be needed. I think that's the big takeaway.

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
What is Rocket Surgery? ^^ (I expect Andy Birko gonna get a laugh out of that) I always have to level. Guess I suck at this. Though, seems I have less to do as I do more of it. Guess I'm not taking question seriously. Like asking "who does not have to level sand before buffing". Mike

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
Fret work not only refines the levelness of the frets, but it also makes them smooth and glossy, with a hand worked appearance that undressed frets will never have. Also, the fret ends also get rounded over to make them easy on the hands. I would do this work for this purpose alone. Leveling the frets along the string pathways also gives a micro-compound shape to the fretboard which undressed frets do not have. Bottom line is don't be tempted to take shortcuts here. Just because the factories don't do it doesn't mean we shouldn't either.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret leveling and dressing?
Barry Daniels wrote: Fret work not only refines the levelness of the frets, but it also makes them smooth and glossy, with a hand worked appearance that undressed frets will never have. Also, the fret ends also get rounded over to make them easy on the hands. I would do this work for this purpose alone. Leveling the frets along the string pathways also gives a micro-compound shape to the fretboard which undressed frets do not have. Bottom line is don't be tempted to take shortcuts here. Just because the factories don't do it doesn't mean we shouldn't either. Well said. One thing I would like to add that I did not realize some years ago is that fret work is an are where thousandths of an inch are important.