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| Yamaha FG Neck Resets http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52681 |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Here is a link to a very useful, recently updated site for the Yamaha FG series (1966-1981) instruments, to include refrets, truss rod repairs, and neck resets. The site does a good job in clarifying the use of adhesives by Yamaha, as well as dispelling various urban myths re: the neck reset procedure. http://yamahavintagefg.com The neck reset info is here: http://yamahavintagefg.com/vintage-yama ... procedure/ We don't tend to do very many of these, but we get 3-4 in a year where the value proposition for the owner is sufficient to justify the $800-$1000 bill for a reset, refret, and general spruce-up. I have a pristine FG-335 waiting for me post-Thanksgiving, with associated expectations. We have customers, and we have customers we love. The FG is owned by the cutest couple ever - whale researchers who met while grad students, and now nearly 45 years later, still at it mentoring another generation of bright-eyed marine biology majors. The guitar was a first big gift during a time of beans, rice, and ramen dinners, given very early in that relationship, so fraught with meaning ...in other words, failure not an option! One word of clarification on the heel cap instructions...the intent of the instructions is to separate the plastic of the cap with the plastic body binding. We cut these caps loose with a fine (0.010" kerf) razor saw - usually somewhere between the binding and where we know we will trim to at the heel cap (usually 0.055"-0.085" out from the body). Too close to the body, and the binding may be damaged; too far out will require a replacement cap). And it's always an option to convert the guitar to bolt-on...we just prefer to preserve the guitar as built if at all possible. |
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| Author: | Greg Maxwell [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Good info. I have heard many say that these old Yamaha FG's can't be reset. I've done 7 or 8 and have yet to find one that I couldn't get the neck off of. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Our experience is that the guitars are no more difficult that most Gibson resets, assuming the prep work addresses both the heel cap and finish bridging issues, but there are some additional considerations with regard to duration of steam use to avoid de-lamination of the plywood sides/top/back plates in the vicinity of the neck joint. Recently, we've been doing some resets - mostly satin-finished, lacquered instruments - with the Solomon SL-30/HeatStick (Stewmac) system to avoid additional finish repair work on lacquer-finished instruments. I am going to use this method on the FG-335 project to avoid potential delamination damage, and to see if it handles any potential epoxy use (FWIW, all I've seen to date is hide glue and what locks like AR/PVA on a very late-in-production instrument). My last neck pull was on a late 1990's Lowden, and the no blush/minimal finish damage should reduce the overall bill for the customer and avoids most of the chore of matching finish sheen levels. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Woodie, I'm one of the people who have tried a Yamaha reset and failed. Maybe I didn't hit the pocket as CTGull (I know him from conversations at other forums) suggests - all I know is that I pumped its seems like gallons of steam into the pocket and nothing moved. I ended up doing the saw-off-the-neck-and-convert-to-bolts "reset" - the guitar is playable and I frequently do. I have turned down several Yamie resets since then telling the owners that it is not worth my time and frustration and their money for me to try with the strong probability of failure. I probably will try it again if an absolute junker comes along but based on my one experience I think I will send them to CT or to you. Would love to see your pictures when you do the FG-335 |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
My experience with these are the same as Freeman's. I have another in the que that I assumed would be a cut off and bolt on conversion. I will review the link to see if I am missing something. Edit: Nope, I had already seen that information before. I am not real confident in the information because the guy freely admits to a fairly shallow repair experience. The last one I tried just did not come out. It started to get loose but would not extract. More effort ended up breaking the heel. Don't want to go there again. I have an oscillating saw that will make quick work of the the amputation. A bolt on conversion does not have any real downside other than originality, and we have to keep in mind that this is a Yamaha, nice though they can be. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
I believe the safe bet might be to see if the pocket can be found, and if not, anticipate that it is full of adhesive and not amenable to steaming. If the pocket is identified, it is a quick job to determine whether the space is open or jammed full of glue. If the pocket is found, conventional steaming may be a viable approach. This is not a problem unique to Yamaha - the Lowden mentioned earlier had absolutely no space at the back of the tail, and quite a bit of the socket-to-tail surface was covered in AR/PVA residue when the neck came off. If steam is the only tool available, it seems prudent to proceed with the neckectomy and conversion. if a HeatStick or similar is available, it may be feasible to heat the joint without steam...or at least it seems like something that works for us. Our one objection to bolt-on conversion for a Yamaha is the lack of beef in the heel to hold an insert. While Taylors and Breedloves (and a few other brands) have a lot of extra wood there as a result of a much less abrupt turn of the heel, the Yamahas are a bit scant in that regard. After seeing dozens of failed Martin glued tenon neck joints where the wood around the insert failed (the insert and bolt are there to hold the neck whilst the glue dries, but end up de facto bolt-ons when the glued joint fails), we started to use a larger diameter, deeper threaded German-made steel insert from Hillman to get the surface area max'd out for the job. If the insert is set and then CA'd, it seems to provide good service...even without the reinforcement we would use on new construction. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
I have a couple of heatsticks so I may as well try to heat it apart, and just be willing to abandon this approach before any damage is done. Then resort to option 2. Thanks for the info Woodie. I will have to check out those inserts. I can't find those inserts. Mind if I ask where you get them and maybe a description? |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Well stand by...apparently the boss was either bored or tired of working on the airplane, so pulled the neck with the HeatStick. In it's place I get to set a 70's Martin...joy. So here are some shots...apparently this is a late Taiwanese-made 335II with a body-mounted Gotoh truss rod. The glue used appears to be PU rather than hide. Notice the dovetail is much longer than the Japanese-made instruments - both holes appear to be in solid tail wood (to be filled with dowel?), but the glue released after about 25 minutes of heating with a few cc's of water in each hole every time the HeatStick was moved between holes. Wiggling appears to be key to the process to avoid breaking the tail. All in all, pretty clean release...other than the extension (!?!?). Attachment: YamFG335II_01.jpg Attachment: YamFG335II_02.jpg Attachment: YamFG335II_03.jpg After 15 minutes.... Attachment: YamFG335II_04.jpg After 25 minutes as the joint was releasing... Attachment: YamFG335II_05.jpg
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
But wait...there's more! From his notes...the water seems more to keep the wood below temp to char and to help with heat transfer, versus generating any steam. Attachment: YamFG335II_06.jpg Attachment: YamFG335II_07.jpg Attachment: YamFG335II_08.jpg Definitely looks like PU foam-out! Not sure why that top layer of veneer took a beating, but I suspect it will go right back where it started at glue-up or we will rout s recess and fill with 0.025" veneer to level. Attachment: YamFG335II_09.jpg Attachment: YamFG335II_10.jpg Have to have words about leaving my work for me...was looking forward to this, but will be stuck doing a D-35 instead. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Have you come up with a good method of plugging the oversized holes that the heatsticks leave. Frets don't cover them. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
It looks like the glue used to glue the neck on is stronger than the glue holding the plys together. If it is an ebony board I think a couple of ebony plugs would not look to out of place, especially if the Frank Ford "slice and fill" technique is used to "break the line" of the plugs. He used it to fill divots, it can also be used to hide miscut fret slots. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
On ebony, we usually use a dust fill, but for rosewood, a best-match plug. We've used the technique that Mr. Clay showed, but not sure it has been applied to the monster-sized holes the heatStick generates. There's always the 0.130" x 0.057" fretwire...no one would notice just one fret done with wider wire, right? 
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Sorry about the delay on the insert information...I had to dig it out of some archived files in the cloud. My mistake on origin - up through our last order, these were Italian-made up, but the last two dozen we received were labeled as Chinese made... no difference we could see in function or material, but we always look for options where Chinese goods are concerned, if only to avoid tariff costs. Usually about $11 per dozen inserts. These steel inserts come in two lengths - ~0.472"/12mm and ~0.787"/20mm, with ~0.472"/12mm major thread diameter. For the Yamaha neck profile, we usually opt for the shorter insert. Hope this information is of use. https://www.amazon.com/Hillman-Group-57 ... B00MN6E302 https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Hillman+5711 ... nb_sb_noss |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
For a semi- large hole I would prefer a plug of the same material, even in ebony. Ebony does have a grain, and glue and sawdust doesn't. You could "grain" a sawdust fill, just as "breaking the line" will help hide a plug, but still, I think over time plugging with the same material will look better. YMMV I like to use the softwood zinc broken thread inserts like McMaster - Carr sells. Aside from the cost savings ($14/100) I think they are easier to insert and hold better. After inserting them you can saturate the wood with CA to lock them in. I'm sure the steel insert threads are stronger, but it is usually the wood around the insert that fails before the threads with either type (it might make an interesting test - most of the steel inserts I've used had finer less aggressive unbroken threads). |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Total newb question - if you drilled out the fret dot and used that to heat the area would it eventually come loose? Even if it took a lot longer it would be simple to hide. The dovetail would have to have a dowel glued back in because the hole would be right in the middle though. Note - my neck reset total = 0. 
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
No mystery as to what glue was used on any particular guitar. The glue in the dovetail will be the same as used under the extension..... judge reset ability by how the extension releases. As I show here....https://howardguitars.blogspot.com/2018 ... uitar.html |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
A good generally true rule of thumb, but for anything with a laminated top or sides, there are additional glue lines involved, and likely NOT the same adhesive used for assembly. And for what it might be worth, we do see a few apparent adherents of Mr. Mario Proulx when it comes to neck resets...hide on the dovetail and Elmer's on the extension. Practically speaking, it's so much easier to get heat to the extension than a dovetail that any thermoplastic glue - whether epoxy, polyurethane, or Titebond - will release. A very different problem altogether to get sufficient heat to the dovetail, but not so much of that heat that the guitar starts coming apart at other joints. I posted the link and found the process interesting because the Yamahas - even the more modern ones produced in the 1980's - are dovetail neck construction, but are widely considered to be 'impossible' resets once the adhesives used move from hot hide to mixed adhesives or epoxy, PU, etc. There is no argument that resetting these guitars is economically foolish, but it amazes me how many baby boomers walk in the door with their dorm room Yamaha in hand seeking to make their old friend capable of yet another rendition of some old, favorite tune. Now that I've had a chance to look at this guitar, it is as the boss mentioned in conversation earlier in the week: polyurethane. This makes the minimal amount of damage and required clean-up all the more remarkable, considering the laminate construction of not only the plates and rim, but also the neck block. This instrument would not have survived a steamed release of the neck...but did quite well with HeatStick removal. I also had a chance to look at another Lowden reset, which came in a few days before the neck was pulled on the previous example, and that too shows absolutely no space for a steam needle with exploratory sounding of the socket, making it a good candidate for the HeatStick approach. If I last the day (chest cold seems to be settling in for a long stay), I'll try pulling this with that approach. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
"There is no argument that resetting these guitars is economically foolish, but it amazes me how many baby boomers walk in the door with their dorm room Yamaha in hand seeking to make their old friend capable of yet another rendition of some old, favorite tune." It's not so foolish really. After you have spent most of your life with someone/something wanting to finish out the rest of it with the same is only natural. Is a $600 to $800 guitar really going to be any better? Considering the cost in relation to "resetting" our own decrepitude it is a small matter. 
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Had a guy come in the other day with an old guitar he wanted me to make playable. I told him it'd be about $400 but the guitar is only worth about $100, at best. He didn't blink an eye. I get it, there's a value for the guitar and a value for the emotional attachment. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Clay S. wrote: "There is no argument that resetting these guitars is economically foolish, but it amazes me how many baby boomers walk in the door with their dorm room Yamaha in hand seeking to make their old friend capable of yet another rendition of some old, favorite tune." And when they say no to the repair price I can sometimes get them for free. It is then possible for me to actually do the job and sell the guitar out the front of the shop and make at least my repair bill money depending on model. Because that same guy is going home to get on reverb or whatever and look for a new version of his old friend! These things have a cult like following...... And while the guys will typically have a Yammy.... The older ladies all seem to have Framus acoustics. Just a curious observation I have made. 
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Hi Brian, Your post has a misattribution - that was a quote from Woodie's post. My Bad, I should have made that plain. Some people do give these things up easily. I was given one that needs a fairly minor headstock repair but is otherwise in decent shape. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
I'm trying to learn something here...if threaded inserts in the neck heel are problematic owing to the lack of 'meat' in the heel, what's wrong with using hangar bolts instead? They require a whole lot smaller drilled hole to thread into. Thanks! |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
I used hanger bolts on my last Yamaha reset/conversion. I had to shorten the lower bolt and take care not to bust through the surface of the heel, but it worked fine. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
The contact area of a deep-thread, 1/2" diameter threaded insert is at least twice the area of the screw-threaded portion of a 1/4-20 hanger bolt (deeper, coarser threading and 2 x pi x major radius of the thread), resulting in at least twice the withdrawal resistance for the same length of insertion. We've used hanger bolts as well as a 'last resort', but will pull the heel cap and reinforce the joint with a vertical dowel insert, just as Taylor and others do, based on some failures we've seen with both hanger and threaded insert end-grain wood shear failures. The problem with inserts is that they don't fit into all heels with sufficient beef left in the heel to take the loads from normal use - particularly a dorm room guitar. An instrument originally designed with a dovetail neck joint may have such a slim heel that hanger bolts are the only option available besides adhesives. Older Yamahas can have some fairly slim heels, hence the interest in retaining the original neck joint where it can be done without too much trouble. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Yamaha FG Neck Resets |
Woodie, thanks for explaining this. Just the sort of reply I hoped for. |
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