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Taylor 816ce setup
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Author:  SnowManSnow [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Taylor 816ce setup
I’ve built going on 15, but I’m still nervous about touching someone else’s guitar.
This is a T816 that has been “fixed” before. It just looks like things are fighting against each other to me. Buzzing w a capo and high action.
I’m trying to decide if this is something I want to remedy or if I should pass off to someone w more experience.

Here are my initial measurements as well as some pics of how it was “fixed” before.

Here are string heights at 12 and 1.
Image

Measurements were taken w the plunge dial indicator from Stewmac and double checked

Relief at 7 is .019 and at 12 it is .026

Here is the saddle as fixed by someone else ... geez

Image

Nut ... ... I don’t think it’s original either
Image

I suppose I’m asking... what protocol should I follow? I just don’t want to bite off more than I can chew...


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Author:  SnowManSnow [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
I guess this should have been in restoration and repair... sorry... admin can move if needed


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Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Frankly, I can't see much wrong in your bridge picture. The nut looks stock to me, but should have the top leveled down so the slots aren't so deep.
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Chris Pile wrote:
Frankly, I can't see much wrong in your bridge picture. The nut looks stock to me, but should have the top leveled down so the slots aren't so deep.

The bridge it almost completely GONE on the treble side. I’m just not use to seeing it cut so low


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Author:  DanKirkland [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
You're not supposed to ever sand the saddle on a Taylor to adjust the action, they are designed to have the neck reset with the shims in their bolt on design. That is the info from Taylor themselves, I've been a certified Taylor slave for about 4 years now.

That saddle needs to be replaced with a new one. Cut the new one to have a *smidge* over 1/8" of saddle showing over the bridge. Then reset the neck and adjust the truss accordingly to get the action you want.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Quote:
You're not supposed to ever sand the saddle on a Taylor to adjust the action, they are designed to have the neck reset with the shims in their bolt on design.


Man, I don't get THAT at all. Why do they say to never sand the saddle?
Author:  doncaparker [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Because Taylors (at least the ones built in recent years) have the fully bolted neck attachment system with laser cut shims that determine neck angle. If you want lower action, you change the shims under the neck, rather than sanding the saddle.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
You told me how it's done, not why.
Author:  doncaparker [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Well, here are the major points behind the Taylor way of dealing with neck attachment:

1. It is generally thought that there is a narrow range of saddle height that yields the best results in terms of driving the top. Making action adjustments by tilting the neck would be the ideal way of getting what you want, if neck angle adjustments were easy.

2. With the fully bolted neck design, and the precisely cut shims, you can get a range of neck angles very easily.

3. Expensive neck resets are avoided.

I'm not a Taylor enthusiast, but you have to give them credit for making factory guitars play well.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
You're not supposed to ever sand the saddle on a Taylor to adjust the action, they are designed to have the neck reset with the shims in their bolt on design.


Man, I don't get THAT at all. Why do they say to never sand the saddle?


It's really because once the saddle drops below 1/8" height on Taylors the tone drops to cardboard box levels.

It's also a way to keep the service guys in business. Just business at the end of the day.
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
So it sounds like he needs to send this to a certified Taylor guy to fix.


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Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Well, Dan and Don - I don't buy it. Here's why....

For most of the history of guitar - necks were set permanently. If it was right - leave it the hell alone. Adjusting saddle height was effective, and easy for the most part. Just because a neck is a bolt on doesn't change that for me. And shims... There is a buttload of theories about why shimming (especially multiple shims) is a tone suck.

Frankly, as a repair guy - time is money, and sanding the saddle works fast. Playing with puzzle pieces and pulling / replacing the neck to get it all right a couple times is.... STUPID. It would drive me up the wall. I like stuff that makes sense - keep in simple. It also makes no sense financially. Taylor's high tech solutions don't impress me at all. In fact - Taylor stuff seldom moves me. If it did, I'd own one.

Then - to the idea that they play well from the factory. HOGWASH. Every new Taylor I've ever seen needed an action set. For the general public who don't know what good action (or good sound) is - an off the rack Taylor will work. For the experienced and frequently gigging clients I have... A little mojo and magic from yours truly is necessary before hitting the stage or studio with a new Taylor.

As for the idea that bridge height should be optimal within Taylors sacred dimensions... I'm not burdened by knowing them, so I proceed accordingly to my 40 plus years at the bench. I sand the saddle to whatever I want, cut the nut slots, and drive on. Collect funds from clients, have a nice day.

I have 2 longtime clients who play Taylors, both have at least 4 each custom made to their own specs (the cheapest was about $4000). They have no complaints with my setups, and have voiced no concerns over lack of tone after sanding the saddle down quite low. I've never touched the bolts inside. One guy is a studio pro, with decades playing in Nashville and Memphis - the other does coffee shop single stuff. They are the pickiest clients in my roster. Believe me, if there was a problem with their Taylors - I would hear about it. One guy lives half a mile from me, and we have dinner 3 times a month. All he ever does is thank me for making his stuff play like butter and sound like angels. Some of them have been featured here in my threads.

And finally, it's a way to keep service guys in business? You think Taylor really cares about keeping a few service people over selling tens of thousands of guitars? Drink that Koolaid, man. Unless they do things differently than Gibson and Fender did me....
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
DanKirkland wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
You're not supposed to ever sand the saddle on a Taylor to adjust the action, they are designed to have the neck reset with the shims in their bolt on design.


Man, I don't get THAT at all. Why do they say to never sand the saddle?


It's really because once the saddle drops below 1/8" height on Taylors the tone drops to cardboard box levels.

It's also a way to keep the service guys in business. Just business at the end of the day.


The high e saddle height is at 1/32”


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Author:  doncaparker [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Chris--

You can aim all of that advocacy in some other direction, please. All I did was answer your questions. I'm not sticking up for Taylor, and I'm not going to be the person who argues with you about whether Taylor makes good or bad decisions about how to build guitars. I was trying to be helpful, not set you off.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Chris Pile wrote:
Well, Dan and Don - I don't buy it. Here's why....

For most of the history of guitar - necks were set permanently. If it was right - leave it the hell alone. Adjusting saddle height was effective, and easy for the most part. Just because a neck is a bolt on doesn't change that for me. And shims... There is a buttload of theories about why shimming (especially multiple shims) is a tone suck.

Frankly, as a repair guy - time is money, and sanding the saddle works fast. Playing with puzzle pieces and pulling / replacing the neck to get it all right a couple times is.... STUPID. It would drive me up the wall. I like stuff that makes sense - keep in simple. It also makes no sense financially. Taylor's high tech solutions don't impress me at all. In fact - Taylor stuff seldom moves me. If it did, I'd own one.

Then - to the idea that they play well from the factory. HOGWASH. Every new Taylor I've ever seen needed an action set. For the general public who don't know what good action (or good sound) is - an off the rack Taylor will work. For the experienced and frequently gigging clients I have... A little mojo and magic from yours truly is necessary before hitting the stage or studio with a new Taylor.

As for the idea that bridge height should be optimal within Taylors sacred dimensions... I'm not burdened by knowing them, so I proceed accordingly to my 40 plus years at the bench. I sand the saddle to whatever I want, cut the nut slots, and drive on. Collect funds from clients, have a nice day.

I have 2 longtime clients who play Taylors, both have at least 4 each custom made to their own specs (the cheapest was about $4000). They have no complaints with my setups, and have voiced no concerns over lack of tone after sanding the saddle down quite low. I've never touched the bolts inside. One guy is a studio pro, with decades playing in Nashville and Memphis - the other does coffee shop single stuff. They are the pickiest clients in my roster. Believe me, if there was a problem with their Taylors - I would hear about it. One guy lives half a mile from me, and we have dinner 3 times a month. All he ever does is thank me for making his stuff play like butter and sound like angels. Some of them have been featured here in my threads.

And finally, it's a way to keep service guys in business? You think Taylor really cares about keeping a few service people over selling tens of thousands of guitars? Drink that Koolaid, man. Unless they do things differently than Gibson and Fender did me....


K? I never said it was a good idea. I just answered your questions based on what Taylor's reasoning is. If you read what I wrote I specifically said "certif8ed Taylor *slave*". I don't really enjoy working on these things.

Chill
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Okay, gents - my bad. It wasn't meant personally, but I can see how my phrasing might make it seem that way.

As for the rest of that post - I stand by every word.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Chris Pile wrote:
Okay, gents - my bad. It wasn't meant personally, but I can see how my phrasing might make it seem that way.

As for the rest of that post - I stand by every word.


And you make some good points.

I'll clarify what I meant by keeping in business. Essentially you get the pleasure of taking your Taylor to a Taylor certified tech to continue having a good experience with a Taylor. It's the same thing with "Honda Certified" or "Toyota certified" you have the label which gives you some credentials with any particular brand or item, it doesn't make you smarter it just gives you a label to hang in your shop that will attract certain customers. Nothing more than that, same thing with certified warranty centers. You can get your instrument serviced by "Joes Gitfiddle Desecration Variation" and have no issues, but taking it to a "Certified" anything sort of breaks the ice for people.

The neck shim thing is fairly unique to Taylor, so by having a propietary system like that it gives the "certified" guys something to continue to do over the course of an instrument's life. And with no other guitars like that it cements the fact that the certified slaves will have work that others won't.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
The relief on that neck is excessive and needs adjustment. And the low saddle does indicate the need for a neck adjustment.
Author:  phavriluk [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Short version: whoever messed with this guitar in the past had no idea what he was doing. It's easier to reset a Taylor neck than to change the strings. No incense, incantations, witch doctors or magicians are needed, just someone who knows what he's doing and has the right shim set. I think setting the guitar to rights with Taylor's process would be a wonderful idea. Taylors are not made to have bridges shaved or saddles sanded.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Okay, Snowman.... Here's the deal. Let's just do a basic setup job on it to see if you can make it play nice, something the client will love.

String to pitch with clients preferred strings. Let it sit for awhile to stabilize. Adjust truss rod for minimum relief. Measure at nut and last fret (or the 12th if you prefer). Now what have you got?
Author:  Woodie G [ Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
For minor adjustments, we handle Taylors just like any other guitar - trim or shim the saddle. The factory may want a neck reset every time the action gets a little high in the middle of summer outdoor festival season, but at some point, common sense prevails. That said, this guitar is clearly in need of a full spa treatment, so figure on a reset, nut, and saddle.

If the customer is the original owner:

- Pass it on to a Taylor-authorized shop to reset the neck

- Enjoy the sensation of relief as that 'ugly baby' becomes someone else's problem

If not original owner:

- (Recommended) Pass it on to another shop that works on NT-neck system Taylors...close the shop and enjoy an adult beverage to celebrate

- (Not recommended) Buy a few hours of training from someone that works on NT Taylors, purchase shims, and order factory nut and saddle replacements (unless the customer wants real ones made from bone), and do the work. This course of action likely makes little economic sense unless you have nothing in the way of Taylor authorized shops within driving distance and the marque is so common in your area that work on other brands is rare.

We've done resets before when the customer was in a serious pinch for time (e.g., sound check in 4 hours) or the guitar is out of warranty, but usually pass them to a fully adequate local Taylor-authorized shop unless there is some other interesting work to be done (e.g., broken neck and neck block, a fun repair). This often saves the customer money and avoids us burning up a lot of time on mundane tasks better done elsewhere (i.e., the boss's constant harping about opportunity cost and things better left to Guitar Center).
Author:  Woodie G [ Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
Just a note on the StewMac relief and nut action gauges...they can go bad and develop erroneous/inconsistent readings. We periodically check all of our dial gauge setup instruments with a surface plate and a set of known diameter rods (repurposed drill rod). If the readings are off, and everything else is good, call Stewmac and ask for replacement gauges...took about two days to get replacements for the two oldest in the shop.

Also note that checking a dial gauge at just the zero or full range is not enough - both of our worn-out gauges showed little error close to the zero and major error at 0.100"...a good check at zero, 1/32", 1/16" and 1/10"-1/8" is worth doing to detect these sorts of error, and it is worth running through those measurements 2-3 times to check on consistency. Experienced machinists such as Mr. Hall likely have horror stories aplenty concerning worn-out, cheaply made, or abused measuring tools and the sort of egregious errors which can be traced to their use, but even quality, well-cared for tools can fail. Commercial shops have formal calibration programs to detect this sort of thing, but even a small hobbyist shop should make basic inspection and calibration of key tools part of a pre-use routine.

Early on here, I got used to the boss asking me if I had 'preflighted' my bench..which is to say, had I checked that I had the tools needed for the job, and were they in serviceable condition.

Also - worth developing the ability to visually estimate common measurements, such as string height over the 1st fret, relief, and what a middle-of-range acoustic and electric setup looks like at the 12th (bass at 17th). With development of that skill, gauges become a cross-check and job aid, versus a crutch.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Taylor 816ce setup
I think a Taylor is good for at least some adjustment of the saddle before a reset but who ever did that obviously went too far. Fortunately reseting the neck angle is a sinch.
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