Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Am I Being Unreasonable?

I'm not in business as a luthier, but I've run my own business since 1985. My experience is that, when a client is repeatedly a hassle, it doesn't get better. The longer you are engaged with troublesome people the more money (and sleep) you lose. I'd give him a refund and move on before worse happens. To build a good business, gravitate toward people who appreciate you and pay on time.

When I spoke with the guy at Euro Tonewoods, he told me ALL carpathian tops have some run out. Sounds like the guy wants a certain wood but not the characteristics that come along with it.

Please read carefully -- I know what I'm talking about.

Ed is right. That top is not a mastergrade top and it has runout. The runout is not terrible by any means and will not bother most players but it is visible. It is a decent quality top that most builders will be fine with but the problem is that some clients are picky. It is up to the luthier to be able to meet their needs or decline the commission. I don't want to be rude but this truly is on you. He asked for a no-runout top and you did not deliver.

Please don't feel bad about that tho' -- you built a beautiful guitar. This is a tough business and a difficult and challenging trade. Learning to notice runout is just one skill that must be developed. And for what it's worth, I see the vast majority of highly-regarded builders routinely using tops with subtle runout. So they either don't mind runout or do not have the eye to notice it when selecting tops.

When I spoke with the guy at Euro Tonewoods, he told me ALL carpathian tops have some run out. Sounds like the guy wants a certain wood but not the characteristics that come along with it.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Fri May 03, 2019 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Am I Being Unreasonable?
Serious question because honestly I don’t know. I don’t think I am but I do wonder what you other builders would do. I started building a guitar for a client over a year ago. It’s a Wenge Carpathian Spruce 000 with a mahogany neck. The client was very adamant about having a perfect top. Perfect in every way mind you but mostly in appearance. It had to have zero runout and even color, grain lines and so on. I normally stock AA and AAA wood with very few Master grade tops. He didn’t like any of the tops I have in Stock. So I agreed that if he found a top he liked from a reputable dealer then I would purchase it. He found a top from the Eurotonewood Company which I had done business with before. I purchased that top along with 2 others just in case so that we could look at all 3 of them and decide. I can always use more stock anyway. So we chose a top and I began building the guitar. Sadly I chipped out the top doing binding and it was bad enough that it extended past the purfling so my only choice was to retop the guitar. We once again went down the path of purchasing wood. This time from Old World Tonewood. I bought 3 carp tops. When they came in he didn’t like any of them. So we went with Erotone again, I bought 3 tops and we chose one. Once again I built the sound box and when finishing the guitar there was minimal runout which I disclosed and the client was very unhappy. So I reluctantly decided to retop it again. Mind you, The two retopped guitars I was able to make 00’s guitars from so this is not a total waste of my time. Obviously it’s not an ideal situation. The tops were made for an 000, braced and thicknessed as such, but they did actually make some nice sounding 00’s. So okay no problem. So we choose another master grade top. I knew right away this top was a good one. Super stiff and light weight too. So I put the soundbox together, finish the guitar and whoops! There’s that dang runout again. There was also a bit of flash and some other lenticular feature in the top. As it turns out this is really one of the best sounding guitars I’ve made to date and it hit the clients target tone very well. It’s a fingerstyle guitar, very responsive with rich overtones and sustain and good note separation and on and on. The client wants a retop or a discount. I’ve already given a discount based on all the troubles so far. He’s asking for a significant discount. At this point I just give up. First of all there is no way I’m going to retop the instrument… No way. I can easily sell this in my shop for my normal asking price. My repair customers all come in and say how much they love this guitar. It would be a shame to retop it and a disservice to this guitar. So… Back to my original question. Given that the ‘customer is always right’ am I being unreasonable? Would you discount a guitar because it has minimal runout? I told him I’ll just refund all his money including the deposit even as part of the original agreement is a nonrefundable deposit. He’s been very patient with me and my mistakes so I feel he deserves it. I’ve also suggested just starting over and building another guitar. I'd like to make a reasonable compromise but making less then minimum wage isn't one of them On a side note, I sand the tops to 150 and either use shellac or min spirits to look for runout. I even did split tests but yet still it escaped me until the guitar was finished. I wonder if arching the top actually exposes more of the runout chatoyance? Also I think that Carp in particular is prone to runout because every top that I have handled so far seems to have it but also it's unusual. I've bright this up before on the forum. The runout on these tops looks more like the BMW symbol if you know what I mean rather then classic left right dark light panels. Also I respectively ask that we play nice. Sometimes threads like this turn out bad I hope it doesn't. Top to show runnout Top with flash Top to show lens Full view head on

Author:	Michaeldc [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Personally, I’d give his money back and move on. You will easily be able to sell the guitar and your relationship with this guy will be over. He would likely be a nightmare if it had a warrantee issue anyway... The guitar and top are lovely BWT! M

Author:	rlrhett [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
I know it seems ridiculous, after all the client actually chose the top. As far as I'm concerned that should be the end of it. They choose the top, they can't now reject the guitar because they don't like the top. Beyond that, I don't even see any "runout". Certainly not any that would cause me to reject a top. But for $25,000, I guess you had better do as the client asks.... Not $25,000? Then I don't think "the client is always right" in this instance. As far as I'm concerned that guitar is flawless and should command all but the stratospheric heights of price. Those insane prices have nothing to do with the actual instrument anyway. It is all about caché and brand. From experience I can say that there are a certain class of clients that are looking for something more than a guitar from the guitar they commissioned. Who knows what? Validation? An emotional rush? Self esteem? Often they are so needy of this ephemeral reward that they commit to paying for something they can't really justify or afford. Worse are clients who can easily afford it but have chased this dragon with so many other luxury buys they know it won't give them the fix they are looking for --and don't care about wasting your time or money. The problem is that you can NEVER give those clients what they need. They will find a flaw SOMEWHERE because the guitar will never give them what they are looking for. Because the guitar falls short of impossible goals (goals they may not even be honest about to themselves) it will always be a sour outcome. I suggest that you offer neither a discount nor a retop. It will never be enough. I don't know your money situation, but if you can afford it I would simply refund the deposit and call it a day. Do you risk some online burning from this person? Probably, but you unwittingly signed up for that the moment you accepted the commission. In any case, all you can do is to say that the guitar is available in your shop for sale should anyone wish to confirm the quality. The proof is in the actual instrument. With regrets, but walk away.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
I think your client is one of those impossible to please, everything in his life must be perfect, types. Refund all the money and walk away happy. A guy like that would probably find defects for years and drive you crazy. Been there done that, never again.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
There's a lot of 'mastergrade' wood that just isn't. The runout is one aspect, the knot shadows are another. IMO that is not a mastergrade top and shouldn't have been sold as such. Not too long ago, that would have been a AA. The knot shadows alone would knock it off even the AAA shelf. I also would leave that guitar as is. If the customer wishes to continue, I would look for a top of a different species, and try to purchase from a supplier that is also a builder such as Aaron Hix or John Arnold, and be very clear and specific that it needs to be free of runout and any other defects, true master grade. That being said, if he will accept a refund, that may be the easiest option for you as your struggles would be over. You'll still get your money out of the project with the guitar you have shown, and not have to discount. If not, I wouldn't give any further discount. The customer must accept that the delays and difficulties are all due to his particular adamance to a feature that is only cosmetic, and that every builder everywhere that has a fair amount of experience will back up that minimal runout DOES NOT MATTER to the sonic and physical potential of a top, it's the QS that matters, and the silking in that top shows that it is perfectly cut in that regard. It's unfortunate in the digital age that people are getting fussy about things of Great Irrelevance. Before Internet no one would have given a dang about that. Overall, customers within a certain price bracket are going to have to accept that as the wood supply dwindles, quality is going to go down. Minimal runout and knot shadows etc will have to be accepted, just as coloured Ebony will have to be accepted. That's just the way it has to be. And if you want absolute perfection in a top, I hear Somogyi has a good stash, but you'll have to pay that premium if that's what you demand...

Official Luthiers Forum! http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Am I Being Unreasonable? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51888	Page 1 of 2

Author:	jfmckenna [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
I'll tell ya, Eurotonewood has nice stuff but their master tops as Ed mentioned are NOT master. It's a great sounding guitar so I'll give them that and also in all fairness the flash didn't show up till it was finish sanded. It must have been right on the cusp of the show face, it is not reflected on the other side. So note to self, Eurotonewood has great prices and good wood but knock their grading system down by two I'd say and or buy several Master tops and plan on returning some. And I know what you mean by some people never being satisfied and that is a great concern but having built up a relationship with this client over a year I know he's an alright guy at heart and he has been patient with me and my mistakes. Sometimes you have to know when to throw in the towel I guess. BTW this is one of the Eurotone master tops that was retopped from the 000 guitar. IT's actually a great sounding 00 now but look at the interesting pattern. IDK if it's runout but it looks like interlocking grain like you see in Mahogany. I may have posted this before or on another forum but anyway, it's interesting.

Author:	Colin North [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Refund his money, it's his loss.

Author:	TimAllen [ Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
I'm not in business as a luthier, but I've run my own business since 1985. My experience is that, when a client is repeatedly a hassle, it doesn't get better. The longer you are engaged with troublesome people the more money (and sleep) you lose. I'd give him a refund and move on before worse happens. To build a good business, gravitate toward people who appreciate you and pay on time.

Author:	doncaparker [ Fri May 03, 2019 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
TimAllen wrote: I'm not in business as a luthier, but I've run my own business since 1985. My experience is that, when a client is repeatedly a hassle, it doesn't get better. The longer you are engaged with troublesome people the more money (and sleep) you lose. I'd give him a refund and move on before worse happens. To build a good business, gravitate toward people who appreciate you and pay on time. My view is exactly the same. I consider it deeply profound advice, because I give it all the time.

Author:	WudWerkr [ Fri May 03, 2019 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Id cut my losses and sell the guitar to someone else . This person will haunt you forever !

Author:	johnparchem [ Fri May 03, 2019 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
I would make clear that you will not discount the guitar. Offer to refund the money, it puts you in control of where you go next. He may still want the guitar. In that case you can sell it on your terms.

Author:	A.Hix [ Fri May 03, 2019 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
People like that suck the fun and enjoyment out of the project. (and they don't appreciate the work, skill, and art involved in the making) I would also offer a refund, and move on. That is a very nice looking guitar, his loss.

Author:	Chris Ensor [ Fri May 03, 2019 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
When I spoke with the guy at Euro Tonewoods, he told me ALL carpathian tops have some run out. Sounds like the guy wants a certain wood but not the characteristics that come along with it.

Author:	Brad Goodman [ Fri May 03, 2019 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Chris Ensor wrote: When I spoke with the guy at Euro Tonewoods, he told me ALL carpathian tops have some run out. Sounds like the guy wants a certain wood but not the characteristics that come along with it. I was thinking the same thing... Gorgeous guitar-move on.

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Toonces [ Fri May 03, 2019 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Please read carefully -- I know what I'm talking about. Ed is right. That top is not a mastergrade top and it has runout. The runout is not terrible by any means and will not bother most players but it is visible. It is a decent quality top that most builders will be fine with but the problem is that some clients are picky. It is up to the luthier to be able to meet their needs or decline the commission. I don't want to be rude but this truly is on you. He asked for a no-runout top and you did not deliver. Please don't feel bad about that tho' -- you built a beautiful guitar. This is a tough business and a difficult and challenging trade. Learning to notice runout is just one skill that must be developed. And for what it's worth, I see the vast majority of highly-regarded builders routinely using tops with subtle runout. So they either don't mind runout or do not have the eye to notice it when selecting tops. ------- My advice - make sure your client is happy. If you can give him a discount then do so but not if it is unreasonably low. My base price is currently $8,500 and if a client went through the process and in the end I couldn't deliver then I would offer up to a 40% discount to keep them happy. But that's just me. The best situation for you financially is to either build the client a new guitar or just refund all his money. Personally, I'd recommend the latter. ------- Regarding Carpathian spruce and runout. Both Euro and Engelmann tend to have a fair amount of runout. However, you can get tops without it but you have to really look for them. In my experience, maybe 5% of the soundboard stock from the various tonewood dealers I've worked with have no runout. Be prepared to dig through piles of soundboards to find no runout tops !!!!!

Author:	violinvic [ Fri May 03, 2019 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
This is why I no longer accept orders. I am back to hobby mode. I build what I want to build and make it available..

Author:	jshelton [ Fri May 03, 2019 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Toonces wrote: Please read carefully -- I know what I'm talking about. Ed is right. That top is not a mastergrade top and it has runout. The runout is not terrible by any means and will not bother most players but it is visible. It is a decent quality top that most builders will be fine with but the problem is that some clients are picky. It is up to the luthier to be able to meet their needs or decline the commission. I don't want to be rude but this truly is on you. He asked for a no-runout top and you did not deliver. Please don't feel bad about that tho' -- you built a beautiful guitar. This is a tough business and a difficult and challenging trade. Learning to notice runout is just one skill that must be developed. And for what it's worth, I see the vast majority of highly-regarded builders routinely using tops with subtle runout. So they either don't mind runout or do not have the eye to notice it when selecting tops. Exactly! I spent several summers harvesting Engelmann spruce for tops and soon learned to find the one in a thousand trees that has little or no runout. We would drive endless miles on Forest Service roads looking for trees that weren't "twisters" until we found the one tree that was straight. Then we had to drive back to the ranger station and convince the person in charge to allow us to cut it, usually in required that it be a "leaner" or lightning strike or damaged in some other way. I hate runout which is why I prefer Red Cedar (we only build classics and flamencos). Red Cedar trees tend to grow straight. BTW, you didn't mention the simple procedure of planing on opposite corners and comparing the result to determine runout.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Fri May 03, 2019 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Thanks Toonces. I absolutely am welcoming to your comments. I think you may actually be Simon? If so I've read a great deal already what you have to say about runout and have learned and appreciated a lot of your writings on the matter.

Author:	J De Rocher [ Fri May 03, 2019 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Chris Ensor wrote: When I spoke with the guy at Euro Tonewoods, he told me ALL carpathian tops have some run out. Sounds like the guy wants a certain wood but not the characteristics that come along with it. I don't know why he said that. The two top sets from Euro Tonewoods that I've used show no visible run out at all, no matter what angle they are viewed from.

Author:	Clay S. [ Fri May 03, 2019 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Personally I would give your client his money back. I would not give him the choice of taking a guitar he has reservations about. I also would not offer to build another instrument for him. It sounds like you have been patient with him as much as he has been patient with you. It has cost you time and money, it has only cost him time. He may be an "alright guy" just not one alright to do business with. The top on the double O looks better to me than the top on the first guitar, but neither one looks terrible. I don't build with mastergrade tops. I have an aversion for paying that much for cosmetics. It's easy for me to offer advice - my (rather limited)"marketing model" is to offer instruments on a "first refusal" basis and I build with materials I select (and usually have on hand) and build things I'm interested in building. If I decide the instrument is a "dud" and needs something redone it will happen before anyone sees it. I use Engelmann spruce quite a bit and some of it does have twisted grain. The run out can vary quite a bit from one side of the piece to the other on - Half - of the top. If the run out isn't too bad you can join the edges with the least runout and put the edges with the most runout to the outer edge of the guitar. If the runout is very bad I don't use it for an instrument with a glued bridge. I buy tops that are cheap enough to "stove" a few if I have to.

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Sat May 04, 2019 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Just an observation. Anything put on the Internet is out there for the world to see. Clients/customers frequent luthier forums. Probably best not to post anything you would not be OK with your clients reading. I’d be in the camp of refunding everything and parting on amicable terms. You could always build a future guitar to his specs and if it looks great give him right of first refusal. If he declines, sell it to someone else.

Author:	bluescreek [ Sat May 04, 2019 5:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
finding true master grade is impossible very few boards I see are this grade. pictures make the run out appear worse best advice is walk you will never make this guy happy. sometimes you just get a customer that even Jesus and Mary can't make happy.

Author:	B. Howard [ Sat May 04, 2019 6:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
OK, this isn't all the client..... If you had not chipped the original top it would have been done (or a different problem) The re-top and discount was a good move there and exactly what I would offer in that situation. The rejection of the re-top due to run out on a top the client personally selected from 6 from 2 suppliers..... That would have caused me to trigger the cancellation clause in my contract which reads as follows " In the event that the need or desire to cancel an order should arise, cancellation of a guitar once started will be effective immediately upon notice by the customer to the luthier and will be irreversible. The luthier will send notice of the cancellation to the customer via mail. The guitar will continue to be built on its original schedule and at its original pace. Upon completion, the guitar will be offered for sale and as being available immediately in a forum or venue of the luthier’s choice. When the instrument is sold, the customer original deposit will be refunded in the form of a check with the exception of a processing fee of 25% of the originally quoted price. Additional fee charges will be withheld from any refund as the result of an order cancellation on a guitar of a personal or highly customized nature and those fees will be determined by the amount of additional work that is required for resale to be possible by the luthier. If construction has not been initiated, the customer forfeits 5% of the originally quoted price." And at this point in the build I would already have received 60% of the commissioned price and now he can wait to get maybe 75%of it back.

Author:	Woodie G [ Sat May 04, 2019 7:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
Knowing when to fire is important, whether in staffing your own operation or dealing with customers. You might be wise to fire this customer before he sucks up more of your precious time, which represents a double impact on your bottom line at this point...lost labor hours as well as lost opportunities to work with someone of a saner nature. I would not give this customer any more opportunities to disrupt your peace of mind...and if he succeeds n taking delivery of any of your instruments, my guess is that he will do just that if he is given either a discount or rights on another instrument. I'd suggest refunding his entire deposit immediately upon his surrender of any rights to the instrument...cancel the contract in writing (one of our resident lawyers should have the addendum format) and give him the full refund check once done and walk away with a smile on your face, knowing that your lost labor hours are a small price to pay for seeing the back of him.

Author:	sdsollod [ Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Am I Being Unreasonable?
That guitar is a beauty. It is not made on an assembly line out of plastic. Natural materials have imperfections and each instrument is unique. Besides... isn't how it plays and how it sounds important aspects (I know I'm preaching to the choir...). I guess the skill of "sizing up" a potential troublesome customer comes with time and experience. As in a typical job interview, not only impressing the hiring manager is important, but determining if you want the job is equally important. I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a list of questions to ask a potential client that would help determine if the client is someone that you would want to make a guitar for.