Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Warranty...what would you do?

On a related topic, what happens when the builder has made some questionable design, material, or workmanship decisions, and the instrument must be repaired? We have been dealing with this issue on a recent repair.

In general terms, the instrument - one from a relatively well known builder - was one we saw a few years ago when new for finish cleanup and rebuff. The back and side finish looked like it had been buffed directly after leveling with P400, so showed both scratches and cloudy areas where numerous fine scratches had not been fully buffed. We suggested a return to the builder for resolution, but when contacted (in a cordial three-way conversation between builder, owner, and repairman), the builder suggest that they were not interested in supporting any further cosmetic work.

We resanded and buffed the back for the customer and the boss elected to treat the two hours of labor as what he considered customer good will and attempting to preserve a colleague's reputation.

Besides the finish issue, our inspection at that time showed three additional design and workmanship issues significant enough that the boss opined that we'd see the instrument again, and likely sooner rather than later.

The instrument came back in recently with significant problems stemming from those observed design and workmanship issues, as well as an unrelated body material issue. Once again, a cordial conversation was had with all parties involved, and once again, the builder was not interested in a return of the instrument to address the issues. The owner asked the builder if they might reimburse repairs, and roughly $100 was offered. The call was terminated and the owner advised that the repair would be closer to $600 to resolve the three issues, plus stabilize the body issue. In a subsequent communication with the builder, the owner was offered a replacement instrument , but the offer was declined (different body wood; same design issues).

As with the others here that expressed reluctance to become someone else's warranty repair division, we elected not to park ourselves between builder and owner, opting instead to work for our customer and allow him to address any financial arrangements directly with the builder.

What I've learned from this:

- Not all builders recognize their own problematic design or construction practices (and we could undoubtedly have a debate about what constitutes 'problematic')

- Even where builders offer a warranty, they may elect to ignore it with virtual impunity, given the reluctance on the part of most owners to damage builder reputation and related resale value.

On the plus side, we've dealt with a number of builders and small factory makers that - even with no warranty responsibility - still elected to handle the repair because they find the idea of one of their instruments out in the world and in less than optimum condition to be intolerable.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Warranty...what would you do?
Had a bridge lift that I agreed to cover under warranty. However, the shop also decided to level, crown, and polish the frets (the need of which I go hmm at), a new saddle, trillion point setup etc. Which doubled the price of bridge repair. I wonder how other builders feel about how much of that you'd cover under warranty?

Author:	Conor_Searl [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I'm assuming the instrument in question is one you either built or have worked on previously? I'd like to look at the instrument in person if the warranty is covering my instrument or my work. I'm not sure I'd want to leave it up to the discretion of a third party to decide what is covered by warranty and what isn't, (not sure if the shop mentioned in your post is a third party or not.) The things on top of the bridge repair you mention at first blush seem like general maintenance things and not warranty issues, having said that if it was a brand new instrument I built or the customer was really unhappy with work I had done, I'd cover those issues. Generally speaking I endeavour to err on the side of generosity, not to be pushed around by clients (which is a real possibility) and not to spend my whole life bending over backwards, but where its reasonable and possible be willing to help people out. By that same token, if we're talking about a relationship with a music store that sells your guitars, and not a direct client, being flexible and generous with guys that are selling your stuff goes a long way. In this case I would like to make sure that the guys selling my stuff were as much on my side as I am on theirs. Its much easier to swallow doing a bunch of extra work for free when you know that situation is the exception and not the rule, and that by helping them out you are fostering a relationship that is mutually beneficial and creates an environment where sales people like to champion your brand rather than your guitars being just one more wooden box hanging on the wall.

Author:	Clay S. [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Assuming the work is being done at another shop (and I offered warranties, which I don't) I would consider the typical charge for regluing the bridge. The other items really aren't related to a lifted bridge. I might cover a replacement saddle if it cracked when the bridge lifted. Not having a network of authorized repair shops who agree to do warranty work for set prices I would be inclined to have the guitar sent to me for any warranty work. Sometimes a lifted bridge requires replacement of the old bridge, which might require a setup, but I would want to make that determination myself. But when you are in business other things come into play than what you might think are reasonable. The long term cost in reputation and sales may make biting the bullet for something you shouldn't have to, make sense.

Author:	tysam [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
For me, Ed I would cover the cost of the bridge and possibly the new saddle. I certainly would not cover any third party fretwork. I am assuming that there was no problem with playability before the bridge lifted and , to me, that places the fretwork in the maintenance category.

Author:	Pmaj7 [ Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Bridge only. Assuming you have standard saddles, send a new one when you receive and measure the old one? Yeah, long distance warranty is tricky. Make them happy...

Official Luthiers Forum! http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Warranty...what would you do? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51800	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
No. I had one bridge only out of all the guitars that I built lift and I repaired correctly with HHG myself right away for free under warranty and everyone was happy. The client who is a recording artist left it in a hot car in the summer in Nashville, got into a bar fight, spent three days in jail and that was enough time baking in a Buick for it to lift. Never liked Buicks especially the little SUV things that look like a shoe these days. Anyway on the other end of the deal the repair provider end. We don't and won't except "third party payer" arrangements except one, Martin Guitar Warranty repair work. Why? Because of exactly this, potential for disputes between the builder and the owner and of course us who did the work and want to be paid immediately. When we do one repair there is the "opportunity cost" of not working for someone else who is dispute free and pays at pick-up. There are also the other interactions with the builder, etc that cost us money. Instead the client when it's their turn on the two month waiting list now... agrees in writing to be responsible for all charges at the time that the guitar is picked-up. Otherwise we refuse to do the work. Builders do call us frequently and ask us to be their eyes and ears on the ground and evaluate if the instrument should be warranty or if the client is culpable of abuse. We respectfully decline and say we work for a living and have to get back to work often pissing off the builder and then we call it a day. For us it's a question of not wanting to get any on us. Our policy, for lack of a better word serves us very well and I'll add that so many builders start selling stuff when they are not yet ready that working on small Luthier guitars except for the well known Luthiers is potentially dangerous for a repair shop as well in terms of the "scope creep" of having to complete the proper manufacture of the guitar that was never done by the builder in the first place. From clearing a sufficient amount of finish under the bridge patch to dealing with lifting and cracks from using unseasoned wood OR not having a properly controlled RH in the shop small builder guitars are viewed by many experienced repair shops as.... danger Will Robinson. Solution for builders: Build in such a manner that your clients help repair Luthiers be the loneliest guys in business such as the Maytag repair guy. Not trying to be insulting but I am giving a real life view of what happens when that guitar is brought into a third party shop that wants nothing to do with disputes between builders and clients. Lastly it's rare that we see a guitar from a well known builder that needs anything besides general maintenance and/or an upgrade such as a pup. We see small builder guitars all the time and often turn them away they are so badly built, poor neck angles, etc.

Author:	B. Howard [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
ALL warranty work must be returned to me to be done by me. NO EXCEPTIONS! I make this clear in my commission agreements and repair work itself by nature is not warrantied....

Author:	jfmckenna [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I will only do warranty work myself too. I have had one bridge lift. I could tell when the guitar came back into the shop that it was most certainly due to being mistreated. Not in a classic country song bar fight 3 nights in jail hahahahha but still. I did the work anyway, it's not really that big of a deal.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Fortunately I have very few problems of the type Hesh mentions. The diagnosis of a need for a new saddle with the OG being too low leads me to think it may have dried out despite what the shop says. Nevertheless I’ll cover the bridge repair and replacement part, but not the deluxe setup (details of which is quite subjective) and all is well. Cheaper for the client and myself in the end as a bridge repair is less than shipping, and no borders need crossing...

Author:	Woodie G [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
On a related topic, what happens when the builder has made some questionable design, material, or workmanship decisions, and the instrument must be repaired? We have been dealing with this issue on a recent repair. In general terms, the instrument - one from a relatively well known builder - was one we saw a few years ago when new for finish cleanup and rebuff. The back and side finish looked like it had been buffed directly after leveling with P400, so showed both scratches and cloudy areas where numerous fine scratches had not been fully buffed. We suggested a return to the builder for resolution, but when contacted (in a cordial three-way conversation between builder, owner, and repairman), the builder suggest that they were not interested in supporting any further cosmetic work. We resanded and buffed the back for the customer and the boss elected to treat the two hours of labor as what he considered customer good will and attempting to preserve a colleague's reputation. Besides the finish issue, our inspection at that time showed three additional design and workmanship issues significant enough that the boss opined that we'd see the instrument again, and likely sooner rather than later. The instrument came back in recently with significant problems stemming from those observed design and workmanship issues, as well as an unrelated body material issue. Once again, a cordial conversation was had with all parties involved, and once again, the builder was not interested in a return of the instrument to address the issues. The owner asked the builder if they might reimburse repairs, and roughly $100 was offered. The call was terminated and the owner advised that the repair would be closer to $600 to resolve the three issues, plus stabilize the body issue. In a subsequent communication with the builder, the owner was offered a replacement instrument , but the offer was declined (different body wood; same design issues). As with the others here that expressed reluctance to become someone else's warranty repair division, we elected not to park ourselves between builder and owner, opting instead to work for our customer and allow him to address any financial arrangements directly with the builder. What I've learned from this: - Not all builders recognize their own problematic design or construction practices (and we could undoubtedly have a debate about what constitutes 'problematic') - Even where builders offer a warranty, they may elect to ignore it with virtual impunity, given the reluctance on the part of most owners to damage builder reputation and related resale value. On the plus side, we've dealt with a number of builders and small factory makers that - even with no warranty responsibility - still elected to handle the repair because they find the idea of one of their instruments out in the world and in less than optimum condition to be intolerable.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Lots of that out there at all price points, that's for sure.

Author:	Tai Fu [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
meddlingfool wrote: Had a bridge lift that I agreed to cover under warranty. However, the shop also decided to level, crown, and polish the frets (the need of which I go hmm at), a new saddle, trillion point setup etc. Which doubled the price of bridge repair. I wonder how other builders feel about how much of that you'd cover under warranty? I would make it very clear about this: Warranty for one year for any defect in workmanship or something of that nature. What's NOT covered: Improper storage of instruments (in Taiwan this is a problem as people might store the instrument in a balcony where it rains all the time and humidity is always above 90%). Accidental or intentional damage (including letting your children play around with it) "Drumming on soundboard" (this is intentional damage). Know how to spot the sign of heat or humidity damage, or excess dryness. If a bridge lifted because the guy decided to store it in the bathroom, then you don't cover it. If it lifted despite the fact that the owner stored it properly, didn't let their children play around with it, etc. and the glue really did fail (it happens), then you do the work yourself. Third party is asking for trouble. If you must do third party because you can't afford to ship the instrument back and forth, find out how much the cost for a bridge repair is at the location your customer is in, and you pay that cost only.

Author:	Brad Goodman [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Woodie G wrote: On a related topic, what happens when the builder has made some questionable design, material, or workmanship decisions, and the instrument must be repaired? We have been dealing with this issue on a recent repair. In general terms, the instrument - one from a relatively well known builder - was one we saw a few years ago when new for finish cleanup and rebuff. The back and side finish looked like it had been buffed directly after leveling with P400, so showed both scratches and cloudy areas where numerous fine scratches had not been fully buffed. We suggested a return to the builder for resolution, but when contacted (in a cordial three-way conversation between builder, owner, and repairman), the builder suggest that they were not interested in supporting any further cosmetic work. We resanded and buffed the back for the customer and the boss elected to treat the two hours of labor as what he considered customer good will and attempting to preserve a colleague's reputation. Besides the finish issue, our inspection at that time showed three additional design and workmanship issues significant enough that the boss opined that we'd see the instrument again, and likely sooner rather than later. The instrument came back in recently with significant problems stemming from those observed design and workmanship issues, as well as an unrelated body material issue. Once again, a cordial conversation was had with all parties involved, and once again, the builder was not interested in a return of the instrument to address the issues. The owner asked the builder if they might reimburse repairs, and roughly $100 was offered. The call was terminated and the owner advised that the repair would be closer to $600 to resolve the three issues, plus stabilize the body issue. In a subsequent communication with the builder, the owner was offered a replacement instrument , but the offer was declined (different body wood; same design issues). As with the others here that expressed reluctance to become someone else's warranty repair division, we elected not to park ourselves between builder and owner, opting instead to work for our customer and allow him to address any financial arrangements directly with the builder. What I've learned from this: - Not all builders recognize their own problematic design or construction practices (and we could undoubtedly have a debate about what constitutes 'problematic') - Even where builders offer a warranty, they may elect to ignore it with virtual impunity, given the reluctance on the part of most owners to damage builder reputation and related resale value. On the plus side, we've dealt with a number of builders and small factory makers that - even with no warranty responsibility - still elected to handle the repair because they find the idea of one of their instruments out in the world and in less than optimum condition to be intolerable. I am interested to hear what specifically what the "problematic design and construction " practices are-if you are willing to share them. I understand you do not want to expose the builder.

Author:	doncaparker [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I agree with Brad, for a specific reason: While I am building guitars right now for fun, I might someday build them to sell them. I consider the advice from seasoned repair folks about how to build guitars in the first place as ABSOLUTE GOLD. I am fine with folks experimenting and all, but when it comes to taking somebody's money in exchange for something I have built, I want to give them something worth the money. A guitar that has "novel" design features, which lead to problems later in the guitar's life, make the guitar not worth what was paid for it. So, Woodie, if you could share your shop's impressions of the specific design shortcomings without shaming the builder, that would be extremely useful.

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Woodie G [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I can't. As I was pointedly directed in an early AM text: Quote: Re UR warranty thread OLF...WTF!!! NO FURTHER DISCUSSION. ACK ASAP It's been nice, gentlemen.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Lols! Fortunately I build entirely normal guitars with no weird inventions. Which means I'm quite happy to have them fixed by other people with the right skill set, and in fact prefer it to doing it myself. Build and repair are related but different fields. I build.

Author:	Brad Goodman [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I built an Archtop for a guy who only lived about 10 minutes from my house so when it came time to carve the neck he asked if he could come over and feel it as was being carved. I So he came over and he said it was little bit “”clubby” I said OK, I’ll carve it down some while he waited and he said OK that’s good .All good. I literally was finished with the guitar and I snap the truss rod off! it was one of those welded truss rods which I don’t use anymore and I had to remove the fretboard make a new fretboard inlay the whole 9 yards and of course make it look like nothing happened which I did.He didn’t know about this of course. So he picked up the guitar really seemed to like it, paid for it. A couple weeks later I get a phone call he goes yeah the neck still feels clubby to me -I’m like what you want me to do? you liked it . I thought we had it where you want it he said well I don’t like it I said OK I luckily it was a honey finish so maybe four- five hours of work to finish work so I did it at no charge Long long story short he kept calling me saying This isn’t right , that isn’t right I looked at it there was nothing wrong with the guitar I finally told him -I’m done! So several years later The Guitars surfaces, someone else bought it and called me up and said he loves the guitar but there was a problem the tailpiece bracket broke. I thought man-this guitar is jinxed! I make my own brass brackets and at that time didn’t realize you need to anneal brass when you bend it. So he brought the guitar to me I fixed it at no charge of course. Other than that I’ve only had very minor warranty issues Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	Clay S. [ Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Considering how the neck was originally carved (while you wait) I think the rework would be a paying gig. Actually any recarving of the neck after the buyer takes it would be a paying gig (if you don't like the neck don't buy it, and if you buy it and want the neck recarved after the finish goes on it will cost you). That was nice of you to repair the tailpiece at no charge for the non original owner. I think most people would not do that.

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
A couple of things to note that I wanted to add and then I'm out of this thread too. 1). When the guitar leaves your hands someone else may teach it new tricks.... You have no control over this, deal with it and everyone will know your name for better or worse. Love the theme song from the sit com Cheers BTW. 2). Most repairs that guitars need are not warranty issues except if a specific builder has a major, repetitive defect. Since most repairs are not warranty issues they tend to take it locally wherever they wish. Some local folks in the repair business are honest, mince no words and tend to be critical of builders who went ugly early selling substandard stuff and say so. It's nice to be so popular that everyone is talking about you..... None of this is directed at Ed I wanted to be sure to say but newer builders who think you can just hang out a shingle before your stuff has been properly vetted. 3). Repair shops don't want to hear from you, won't take your advice, if you look like you may be a cook in their kitchen where the guitar is now they may tell you to get ........ and even enjoy it at times. Sadistic bastage repair folks I tell ya.... 4). The world of the repair person is not endlessly toiling by candle light with sharp chisel in hand it's chuck up the proper, well maintained tool and go for it, get her done, next. 5). If you sincerely want the help of independent repair folks out here be prepared to reimburse your client for needed repairs that they pay the repair provider for, full price too repair folks should not have to discount the warranty work of others. 6). Here's the biggie. We all may have a warranty in writing but most of us at the end of the day do whatever we want to do and in my case I hope to be there for my guitar purchasers for the rest of my days. They already gave me a lot of money and I gave them a piece of me. Maybe I should rephrase that.... knowing this room.... . So do whatever you want, cover whatever you wish but there are no hard, fast rules here. If you are still building and selling you may be inclined to eat more than if you are already a legend in your own mind.

Author:	doncaparker [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Another consideration for hand builders: advertising and reputation in the age of the internet. Having your customer remain happy with the purchase for years, not just on the day you get all of your money, is pretty dang important these days. I’m not saying you should reimburse for all repairs; you shouldn’t. But when you are clearly, objectively right to not cover that cost, your ability to be seen by the rest of the internet world as the voice of reason will depend on how you communicate that bad news to the customer. So, be careful. And if the question of whether it is a warranty item or just wear and tear is fuzzy, and your client is poised to either sing your praises or say terrible things about you on the internet, you might want to err on the side of covering the cost, or doing something to keep the client happy and in your camp. Angry former clients are trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for Poorhouse. Your business can live or die by word of mouth (more likely, the digital equivalent).

Author:	Tai Fu [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Which means you will have to raise your price when customers get the idea that they can neglect your instruments and make you pay the costs. In the end is you had to keep paying for repairs you might as well not do it.

Author:	doncaparker [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I’m just saying that, if you want to sell anything that is the product of your personal work, having unhappy customers is a terrible marketing strategy. Regarding the overall economics of trying to make and sell guitars, that’s a whole other conversation. There are lots of reasons why those numbers often don’t add up for an individual builder. My point is more specific: I don’t see how having unhappy former customers say bad things about you on the internet, and having potential customers believe the unhappy former customers, can help. It only hurts. And it hurts in ways that last.

Author:	Tai Fu [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I don't even build that much, probably most of my work is repairs anyways. Either one offers similar challenge and I don't see how a repair shop can't build guitars as well. But when you sell a guitar for 2000 dollars, and then you reimburse that same guitar for 1000 dollars, you're losing money. Pretty soon you will be bankrupt unless you're like airline companies, where they're just propped up by rich people for the prestige.

Author:	doncaparker [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
Why would you use such an extreme example? Doing so doesn't advance your point. $2,000 is not a lot of money for a hand-made guitar, and $1,000 is a whole lot of money for repairs on a guitar that only cost $2,000 in the first place. And if a $2,000 guitar needs $1,000 in work that someone can make a decent case should be covered by a warranty (remember, I didn't say you should cover all repairs; only the ones where it is fuzzy as to whether it ought to be a warranty item), then maybe it should have never left the shop in exchange for money. A more likely scenario is where a hand made guitar is sold for something North of $2,000 (maybe $3,500), and it needs some work that could amount to 10% of the sale price, and the customer can make a pretty good case for it being a warranty item (i.e., it is the sort of thing where reasonable minds can differ). Do you really want that person trashing your building skills and business ethics on the internet? Or would you rather have that person saying how awesome you are? Do you think the value of your reputation exceeds $350? I do. I'm not saying you are going to make money on this particular guitar. You might lose money. But you will lose a lot more money over the long run if this person has what others will view as a valid reason for criticizing your work or how you do business. But, you know, everybody has their own way of dealing with stuff. You should do what you think is best, and situations vary. I'm simply saying that you either benefit, or suffer, from a reputation. Investing in that reputation, in my opinion, is not wasted money.

Author:	Tai Fu [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Warranty...what would you do?
I guess the concern is, the customer gets your guitar, then neglects it by leaving it next to a heater, or in a very wet place, or in the trunk of a hot car. Of course he doesn't tell you but then the guitar (predictably) develops major issue. You take it back on warranty but while working on the guitar (or perhaps before after a cursory examination) you discover evidence of heat/humidity related damage. You tell the customer that you don't cover that sort of thing because it is very clear the damage was due to neglect or abuse. The customer gets mad (or says nothing but still mad) and trash talks you on Yelp or other forums. It's an extreme example for sure but it is not outside of the possibility because some people can be like that. Something reasonable like a 300 dollar repair job because the neck fell off due to bad glue or an oversight, yes for sure that will be covered and I would bend over backwards to make it right. But I guess if I were to fix a neck falling off and discovers numerous other issues that indicates heat damage, and deduced that this could be the reason the neck fell off, I could inform the customer that I would still fix the neck issue on warranty but not the other issues that are clear signs of heat damage. What do you think?