Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello All,

How do you start an engagement with a new client?
Do you require a deposit? If so, is it a percent of the cost or a fixed number?
How do you accept payment for the deposit?
What type of pre-work do you do during the planning phases and how does this affect the cost?

What would you never do again?

Sorry for all of the questions and thank you in advance!!!

_Mike

_________________
_Mike Tracz
MCT Guitars
https://www.instagram.com/mustcreatethings/
https://www.youtube.com/mustcreatethings

How do you start an engagement with a new client?
They typically contact me.

Do you require a deposit? If so, is it a percent of the cost or a fixed number?
I have a commission agreement for builds that requires a 30% down payment and has a schedule to pay the balance as the build progresses. For repair, restoration, etc I only require a deposit to cover any non stocked items and take the balance at completion.

How do you accept payment for the deposit?
I accept cash, paypal, all credit & debit cards, personal checks from established customers and of course firewood is always as good as cash at my counter....

What type of pre-work do you do during the planning phases and how does this affect the cost?
Written estimates are typically free. I may at times charge a bench fee for detailed diagnostics if the job is not undertaken by the customer. No bench fee if I turn down the job....
.
What would you never do again?
Lot's of room here.... I would never work 40 hrs a week for someone else again!
Not likely what you meant.... But seriously I would never be a certified warranty center for any brand again.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Usually, clients start things by engaging with me via email or a call.

I take a 50% deposit based off of final price, which is determined by woods and features.

I'll take any means of payment except chickens and credit cards (pescatarian, not set up for CC). PayPal is the most common for international, debit for domestic.

Not sure what you mean by pre-work. All details are settled before the deposit is made. The cost is determined by customers choice of woods, and which features they choose.

I would never again...

1) accept payment in advance. Sometimes when tax time comes along people have a chunk they want to use all at once. This is great on the day it happens, but sucks six months later when you have to build a 'free' guitar where there's no payout upon completion.

2) accept payment in dribs and drabs, 100$ here, 100$ there...it's never an amount enough to be really useful in the shop/life and ends up being a guitar with no payout at the end.

Hey Ed,
For those that want to pay in advance or in drips and drabs you should open an escrow account. Then don't take the money out until the guitar goes out.
I knew an insurance agent who used to sell policies that the premium was collected for on a weekly basis. He said they weren't great policies, but they gave people some insurance and even though you got a better deal on a policy with a monthly premium, the people who bought the weekly policies and paid more for them (in the long run) were people who spent the money on something else if you tried to collect it on a monthly basis. Unless you are selling more than you can make the guy who pays in drips and drabs may eventually pay for a guitar.
The guy that wants to burden you with all the money up front - if you don't take it someone else might.
So if you can muster a little restraint, an escrow account might help you sell a few more guitars and still allow you to have that payday for a job well done.

I'm not a professional builder or repair person, but I am a professional something else (not guitar related), so I do offer this suggestion:

The difference between building a new guitar and repairing an existing guitar matters, because in the first instance, you are providing a product, and in the second instance, you are providing a service. Different ways of getting paid should be used for providing a product versus providing a service. I recommend incorporating that difference into how you follow the good advice that others have given.

Also, it is very important to put the terms of your engagement in writing, and get the customer to either sign a physical contract or send an e-mail back with approval of the terms. You need to do this before any work starts. And I would recommend including any warranty information up front, not merely upon your delivery of the finished product or work. If someone doesn't like your warranty, you want that problem to surface before you are really doing business with this customer.

For those interested here is my commission agreement for a new instrument. This and a detailed spec sheet signed by the client at the time of initial deposit.

Commission Agreement

Lutherie, or the building of stringed instruments is a craft requiring a wide variety of artistic and technical skills to be present and applied by the craftsman performing the work. The commissioning customer who is placing an order and trusting the luthier or instrument builder with the task of building a custom guitar to his specifications understands that the work is sometimes subject to inspiration and is also very tedious and time consuming from the early design and material selection process to the conception and execution of custom inlay and other adornment details and ultimately the completion and delivery of the instrument. The customer also understands and accepts that the finish process is, due to the materials used and technical nature of the process itself, subject to varying and unpredictable times being necessary for it to be completed properly. All projected completion times and dates for steps of the build process or for the overall completion of the instrument are purely estimates by the luthier and are subject to change without notice at anytime during the construction process. Photos and updates will be provided to the customer as regularly as possible according to the schedule and time available to the luthier. The nature of a small shop where custom instruments are being handcrafted by single luthiers is one of careful attention being given to each and every detail of the construction of the instrument. The environment is one that makes the accurate prediction and offering of exact dates of completion of any step or entire instrument by the luthier to the customer impossible.

Every guitar I build is handcrafted using a wide variety and selection of hand tools and specialized industrial machinery and power tools. All the aesthetic and adornment details such as bindings and purflings, inlay and decorative details in the headstock or fingerboard and the entire finish processes are carried out by hand. The charm of every handcrafted product or item including stringed instruments is elevated by the presence of evidence of the hands of the craftsman being used throughout the process of creating it. The results that are possible to achieve in a large and automated production shop should not be expected and are typically not desired when commissioning a custom guitar to be crafted by an experienced luthier.

Tone is a subjective matter and can never be exactly predicted or guaranteed. The use of high quality woods and materials coupled with the skill of the luthier will consistently yield good tone and volume. It is always the goal of the luthier to bring the wood to its tonal potential through careful attention and the tedious and painstaking process of voicing and tuning the necessary components. Most experienced players have enjoyed the phenomenon of a guitar’s tone improving and its volume increasing over the first few months or years after its creation when it is played. This obvious series of changes that take place as the guitar is played has been known as “Playing in” or “Opening up” the guitar and is quite dramatic in most cases.

In the event that the need or desire to cancel an order should arise, cancellation of a guitar once started will be effective immediately upon notice by the customer to the luthier and will be irreversible. The luthier will send notice of the cancellation to the customer via mail. The guitar will continue to be built on its original schedule and at its original pace. Upon completion, the guitar will be offered for sale and as being available immediately in a forum or venue of the luthier’s choice. When the instrument is sold, the customer original deposit will be refunded in the form of a check with the exception of a processing fee of 25% of the originally quoted price. Additional fee charges will be withheld from any refund as the result of an order cancellation on a guitar of a personal or highly customized nature and those fees will be determined by the amount of additional work that is required for resale to be possible by the luthier. If construction has not been initiated, the customer forfeits 5% of the originally quoted price.

I understand how important it is to the purchaser of a handmade guitar to be able to see and play the guitar in person. Purchasers of guitars shall have a 72 hour review period. If you are dissatisfied with your guitar you have 72 hours from the time you received the instrument to contact. You must contact me before you do anything else! Returns without my authorization will be refused. Purchaser is responsible for the returned instrument until it has been received and inspected by me. Purchaser will pay all shipping costs and be charged for any damages/repairs. Same terms and conditions shall apply as a canceled order

I, the commissioning customer, understand and accept the above explanation of the craft of Lutherie and its possible variables and limitations is accurate and reasonable. I understand the guitar will be built according to the attached Specification Sheet. Any changes may result in an increase in the total cost of the guitar. I also understand the conditions of the commissioning a guitar from Brian Howard and the conditions of cancellation of any order. I understand that all dates are estimates for the completion of both individual steps in the building process and the entire guitars construction. By submitting a 30% deposit with this signed commissioning agreement, I initiate the order to be filled according to these conditions as close to an estimated date of completion as possible. I understand that the instrument being built will be covered by a limited lifetime warranty against defects in materials and workmanship to me as the original purchaser of the guitar. I have read and understand the terms of that warranty and the luthier assumes responsibility to honor them as part of this agreement. Another 30% of the quoted price is due upon the beginning of construction, and the remaining 40% is to be paid in addition to all shipping costs and charges upon completion of the instrument by the luthier.


Signed_______________________________________________ Date____________

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Very nicely written. Thanks for sharing it with the forum.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

The first thing I do is share my feelings with the customer as to the fact that I cannot guarantee that the guitar I build will match the desired tone in the customer's head and that there is some risk that even if returned they will be out some money assuming a traditional contract as Brian has so generously shared.

I think a more common scenario is that since they have skin in the game and have probably shared build photos with friends and on the web they really want to like it and keep it but eventually it is obvious that it is not their holy grail and it goes up for sale. I think this happens more often than one thinks and many times the luthier does not hear about it.

Since I have done the majority of my sales off the wall in a music store I have given customers the option of having me build the model they desire but without any custom personal appointments that would make it difficult to sell and give them right of first refusal when it is done. I think they can evaluate an instrument much more objectively if they don't really have any skin in the game and don't stand to forfeit any cash if they decline the build. This has worked well for me.

Although the commissions I have done have turned out OK for the most part I still think that commissioning a guitar in the traditional manner with a partially non-refundable payment is not the smartest way to buy a musical instrument. Even from a master luthier and using the same materials and building technique, each guitar is going to have it's own unique personality.

I am sure many will differ with me and I certainly respect that.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

You guys are amazing! Thank you so much for the replies and sharing your practice. I did not expect a response like this and I am truly grateful.

I feel much more prepared and better about moving forward.

Thank again!

_Mike

BTW - I wasn't getting notifications that there were replies and apologize for not checking back sooner.

_________________
_Mike Tracz
MCT Guitars
https://www.instagram.com/mustcreatethings/
https://www.youtube.com/mustcreatethings

My advice is a bit different. If at all possible, don't take deposits. Don't build something you can't sell if things go weird , which can easily happen. Never let the customer own you. I no longer do any unusual, unsellable inlay, except on the headstock. Worst case scenario a headcap can be removed easily. and you're only out a little time. Deposits are more dangerous the less experienced builder you are. Good luck!--Bob

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“ The meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away” Pablo Picasso

FWIW .I sell to the public . I do not like commissions or deposits. a total PITA.If you like it you buy it . If not, return it, someone else will buy it. You have to find a way to sell that fits your values, and makes a living for you an your needs. but not at the expense of unhappy clients. signed older . wiser and grumpier.

I’m not yet building to sell, but I will get there at some point. When I get there, I will just build, then sell. This will never be a source of income upon which I rely to support my family; I have a day job for that. I don’t need the pressure and aggravation of working on a commissioned piece for a pushy customer. I get enough of that in my day job. I’ll be following the Ernie model. Having said that, there are folks who like building custom instruments, and there are people who want to pay someone to build their dream guitar. If it works out for you, that’s cool. I don’t think it would work well for me.

As a hobby builder I follow the Bobby McFerrin selling protocol - "Don't Worry, Be Happy". If it doesn't seem to fit with that I don't do it.

Clay I thought it was that 80/s e. indian guy with the huge moustache that made that quote, sri bubba rum raisin ???. Selling in and of itself, can be very demanding ,particularly with clients who are grinding you for everything at half your quoted price , ask me how I know?. Am not denigrating those loofiers who like to do commissions, more power to them .Its just not my style. Just do what works for you !!

It's interesting how varied our experiences are. Nearing 300 commissions without haggle or hassle...Knock on wood.

In my experience the more flexible and accommodating you are, the easier it is to make the sale. In my experience, the more flexible and accommodating your are, the more problematic the build will be. That's the trade off.

For me, this is a hobby business that hopefully will pay for itself and maybe one small luxury for the family. So I'm not very flexible. I build a unique guitar that took me twenty years to work out, and I don't offer a lot of options. Cutaway, non-cutaway; scale length; nylon or steel string; nut width, full depth or thinline. That's about it. I probably get an order for every ten to twenty inquiries. Is that a viable business? No. But I've yet to meet someone my age living in California actually making a living doing this (other than Pepe Romero, and I consider that because of his name he is a special case). So if it is not likely to ever be something that will support me and my family, I might as well make sure I enjoy making each one.

Amen!

Thank you for continuing this discussion. I have yet to make a decision but am thinking about going this route.

Specifying the build (materials, measurements, etc.) and providing a sketch along with the projected cost. When complete I will offer them the guitar first, if they are not interested I will offer it for sale or use it to show shops that have been asking to see my work.

This way I won't build something that is too unique and won't have to take on a client in my non-professional life. Keep it fun and on my terms.

Thank you again for all of your input! Feel free to weigh in and tell me I'm crazy!!!

_________________
_Mike Tracz
MCT Guitars
https://www.instagram.com/mustcreatethings/
https://www.youtube.com/mustcreatethings

+1

I never did commissions either and believe it to be selling futures fraught with uncertainty AND a healthy does of unwanted freakin pressure on all concerned... Who needs it. Once we take money we have a contact.... keep that in mind.

Instead I built what I was interested in and if someone wanted it they bought and paid what I was asking.

If someone wants a highly personalized instrument or a nine string POS they were not a prospect for me nor was I for them. Next....

I can't stress this enough. Frequently we hear the horror stories about someone buying an inexperienced small builder instrument and being very dissatisfied with it. We've had to pronounce some small builder instruments DOA (in terms of the costs to rebuild it correctly vs. the value that might be received) far too often.

Last week it was a $8K commission that was three months old and the plastic..... binding was coming off. Inexcusable and embarrassing not to mention tragic for the client who is heartbroken.

This is not directed at you but many small builders shouldn't be selling yet.......

Not trying to discourage you from your venture but I am providing a view from where many of these instruments end up in a repair shop with a pissed off client and an evolving industry that just got another black mark.

Lastly I never sold a thing until I had the chops to do any possible repair to one of mine if something failed.

And really lastly I know of lots builders with commission contracts and sure you can boiler plate the crap out of every conceivable thing that could go south. But the first time this happens in the age of the Internet to a builder the story lives on for years and years.

Nearly all of this goes away, the down sides by simply selling what's already a living, breathing, you can try it out and bond with the thing instrument.

Ernie knows!

I’ve always had mixed feelings about commissions. They can be stressful, but I enjoy the interaction with a client to design and build something that speaks directly to him or her.

To relieve the stress from me, I offer a 100% money back option after a 48-hour trial period. If I can’t sell it to someone else, I don’t really want to be building it. Fortunately, no one has yet asked me to inlay their name across the fingerboard (heel caps, yes, but they’re easier to replace). So far, I’ve successfully discouraged extreme personalisation that would make the instrument difficult for me (or the customer) to sell to someone else.

I also do repair — I find one side of the lutherie coin gives tremendous insight on the other. Just last week I had a custom-built instrument come in the hands of a very disappointed customer. It is actually a nicely crafted instrument, but the customer had asked for an arm bevel and the luthier had never made one before. I was asked if I could “replace” it with something more to his liking — I said “no”, but I’ll do a proper setup on it today, so it’s nicer to play. Lesson: if you’re not prepared to give a money-back satisfaction guarantee, you’d better stick to designs and techniques you know really, really well. Commissions are not a good place for experimentation, and we all need to do a bit of that to grow.

Of course, I’m talking as someone who doesn’t really need to do this to put bread on the table. My business model fits a retiree with loads of business and life experience, but with another passion burning for release. Works for me, YMMV.


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If I'm building an instrument at someone's request I do it on a first refusal basis. I use materials I have on hand (except the requestor supplies the tuners). I don't do highly personalized stuff but I will build something "unusual" if I think it will work as a musical instrument and it is something I would be interested in building. A 9 string guitar, maybe, a travel harp guitar - I've done that, a double strung tenor guitar - they sound great! Octave mandolins, 5 course citterns, no problem. I build a number of different instruments, so I feel I have a fair idea of what will work and what won't. I do reserve the right to have creative control over what I am making, but the person has the ability to walk away from the project at any time. Again, this is done on a "hobby" basis, which is the case for most of us, whether we want it to be or not.

However the relationship with a client starts, avoid the temptation to abandon them once issues arise. In both interviews and in his book, Mr. Bob Taylor mentions that Taylor Guitars saw nearly all of their first year production returned for warranty or other work their first year, half their second year production back, a third of their third, etc. That seems like a good model to use for anticipating warranty claims when considering whether a builder can afford to support what they produce.

We've seen a number of new instruments in for what ended up to be warranty repair...most were well supported by the builders, but a few have not been eagerly received back into the hands of their creators. We're currently dealing with an instrument with both design and material problems, and the degree of abandonment of both customer and instrument on the part of the builder seems likely to generate some ill will, given what we see as $700 or more in repairs needed, and only a token amount offered by the builder in compensation.

The lesson here? If supporting your instruments is not something you are willing or able to do, state that up front. Do not offer a 5 year or 10 year or lifetime warranty when you have no intent of fulfilling your obligations. Yes, the chances of ending up in court are vanishingly slim - especially where an international border separates buyer and builder - but the damage to the relationship and the builder's reputation may very well sink the business.

Somewhat mitigating this risk of reputational injury is the reluctance of custom guitar buyers to depress resale prices with public discussion of the issues with their instruments, and no reputable repair shop will want to get involved in naming names even when they are involved in resolution of the issue. All that aside, word will likely get out - the owner's friend, a potential buyer, or some third party will mention the issues poor so-and-so is having with that expensive new guitar and the damage will be done.

In every business or personal transaction in which I have been involved, what was promised and what was ultimately delivered made or broke the relationship. It seems much better to under-promise and over-deliver than the reverse, and in my experience, the simplest truth is always the best...even when that truth may not be precisely what someone might wish to hear.

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

The Taylor reference is interesting Woodie. It dovetails (sorry) into the drop off thread. The staff at the store where I sold told me about problems with rising extensions with Taylors in the earlier days and working with them to remedy the problem.

Many times the honest dealing with complications will enhance a reputation much more than a hundred good outcomes.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Taylors factory production problems as mentioned have no bearing on this discussion IMHO. A factory is a different environment and produces a different product.

I have been at this 10 years now full time, lost count but have built over 3 dozen guitars and have had only one returned for a warranty bridge re-glue. My point is that if you are in this game at the Luthier level, building your own guitars with your own hands and need to figure on even 25% of your work returning for warranty you should stop now and find something else to do. All those free warranty repairs cost you double for every hour. Once for the time lost on for profit builds or repairs and again because you do not get any pay for the hours spent repairing under warranty.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I fear you have very much missed my points, Mr. Howard. Let me attempt to clarify.

IIRC, Taylor was at one time three builders in a small work space...amazingly similar to the shops that many of us operate out as builders or repair people. I believe there are likely far more similarities than differences in Taylor's first year or two of operation and that of many small shops, so it seems...unwise...to discard Mr. Taylor's hard won wisdom simply because of the size and scope of his current operation.

Further, the ability to support significant warranty work on early production does not imply that the prudent luthier will find that effort to be necessary, but rather that having a well made plan and sufficient resources available to support that plan often obviates the need to execute. While I take joy in your great success with your early builds, Mr. Howard, I also find myself wishing that your observed percentage of returns for repair was a little more common across the craft. Having recently had a hand in getting two Olsons back to their maker for refinish work (Titebond-related cold bridge creep and finish delamination), and handled a number of other warranty communications with both small shop builders and factories, it seems that warranty work should be figured in as part of building for compensation, however gloriously well qualified and skilled the builder. Considering support after delivery as an element of the 'engagement' considerations does seem to me to have some bearing on the OP's question.

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan