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What is the preferred pore filling method
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51563		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  6string [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  What is the preferred pore filling method
What is the best way to fill the pores in Indian rosewood back and sides? I’ve read about several methods, epoxy (zpoxy), shellac and pumice, waterbased fillers such as aquacoat or timbermate, building coats of lacquer.

Not necessarily looking for the easiest way but for the best. I was debating using tru oil as a finish coat, spraying lacquer would probably not be an option due to temperature restrictions at the moment.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
How do you define "best" in this case? What performance characteristics are you concerned about?
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Hard to beat epoxy (zpoxy)
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
I just finished using ZPoxy. And I have to say this far it is my favorite.
It’s hard to mess the process up.
Oh, and make sure you get finishing resin .... not strait epoxy (although it may still be fine).
It does take some sanding back to get it flat, but it stands easily. If possible use a sanding method with dust extraction (requires a delicate touch). Also wear a mask. Don’t wanna breath the stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  mike-p [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
You can use tru oil to fill the pores. Haven't done it yet but I soon will.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
The most common method for home builders is epoxy. I was pretty gung ho for trying CA, I did some test panels with it that gave me grief. So the last shiny I did with epoxy, and I couldn't believe how easy it was or why I used to think it was difficult. Instead of sanding, I scraped it level, and it turned out great...
Author:  LarryH [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
There's a thread addressing the possibility of micro cracks in EIR that don't show up until later in the finishing process with the suggestion of a thin CA as an initial under coat to seal those cracks then a pore filler on top of that. I'm seeing those cracks in my current EIR and will use a thin CA, then pore fill with Zpozy over that.

When budget allows I will most likely switch to Silver Tip epoxy with the fast hardener.
Author:  LarryH [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
mike-p wrote:
You can use tru oil to fill the pores. Haven't done it yet but I soon will.


I tried it with sand paper and it built nice pore filling slurry that took forever to harden - can't remember if it ever did actually... Probably won't go down that road again but still love Tru Oil as a finish for necks...
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
I've not used Tru-oil on rosewood but I have heard that sometimes it doesn't dry well on rosewood.
Author:  mike-p [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
This is bad news. I've only done open pore finishes on mahogany which I really like but thought they wouldn't be so attractive on rosewood.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Bryan Bear wrote:
I've not used Tru-oil on rosewood but I have heard that sometimes it doesn't dry well on rosewood.

I have used tru oil on Cocobolo, Mad RW, and EI RW - no issues at all. I make sure to seal with shellac first, then apply the tru oil. Works for me.

Note, I didn't use tru oil for the pore fill however. I have used Z-Poxy and Acqua coat, with good results.

Glenn
Author:  mike-p [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Ok great. I'll try that. Thanks.
Author:  doncaparker [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
I'll offer up a vote for a traditional shellac/pumice/sanding dust pore fill. I won't go into the aspects of it that can be challenging; you can look those up for yourself. But once you do it right, the result is great. And if you use Everclear for the alcohol (as opposed to denatured alcohol), it is nontoxic. I try to keep my exposure to things like epoxy and superglue to a minimum.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
For me the best overall pore fill is Epoxy. I have been using System Three Clear Coat of late. but....
when I finish with Royal-Lac Post Catalyzed I use CA. That is because Royal-Lac Post Catalyzed is not considered compatible with epoxy by the manufacturer.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
I used a barrier of seal-Lac over epoxy and the pc RL and it worked fine...
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Epoxy is by far the most attainable for the home builder. Once u get the technique down, it produces excellent results. But you have to get that technique!. Zpoxy is a favorite for three reasons: its super easy (and forgiving) to mix. Its inexpensive. The amber color really pops the wood grain. There are many other finish epoxies. Most use them for their water white color, etc. But they can be more finicky on mix. Make sure you ask a lot of process questions before you dive in. Also know this: many people are allergic to epoxy, and the reaction gets worse with repeated exposure. Wear nitril gloves. Have plenty of DNA around for cleaning. I let others chime in on the technique
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
I still prefer oil-based paste wood pore filler. Call me old fashioned.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
My technique: Surface is perfectly sanded to 220. Top is protected with carpet film. Spray body with Prestech 58/1, 58/2, then apply epoxy using an 6" ettore squeegee. Cross grain. Along grain. Next day, scuff sand, scrape drips and ridges. Apply again. Same way. Third day, scrape sand sand back to smooth. Don't worry about areas that open up to wood, just don't oversand there. Apply a diluted washcoat of epoxy (DNA). Wipe. Next day scuff sand, Prestech 58/1, 58/2 (on whole body top and all), 30 minutes later you are ready to spray topcoats.

Except for prestech, I bet many here do very similar
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Barry Daniels wrote:
I still prefer oil-based paste wood pore filler. Call me old fashioned.


OK. Your old fashioned. pfft
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
I tried epoxy once and swore I'd never do it again. Funny how this stuff works well for some and not for others. In any case, as in traditional pore filling I always sand back to wood. There was another thread about that. I know epoxy works well for many people but it would not work well for me and my customers who think that slathering epoxy all over a guitar and calling it a finish is acceptable ;) I know I know I know... Big can of worms, I'm just saying. I'd probably convince myself that it was okay to use if I didn't have such a nasty time with it.

But Hey I'll slather CA all over my guitar and call it a pore fill ;) But again, I sand back to wood. I've been really liking CA as a pore fill lately.

I also really like using egg whites. Not only is it a surprisingly great way to fill pores but again certain clientele like it.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
No question that epoxy is a mess to work with. I totally underestimated the effort. It almost caused me to quit it. I think anybody attempting this needs to understand a first attempt will likely be a failure. Sand it back, use an epoxy stripper (good luck finding that these days) and try again. there is nothing about this that is easy peazy first time out.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Mike, are you scuff sanding the adhesion promoter before spraying finish on it? You have to with UV cured, not sure about others.

Also, FWIW, I'm really enjoying working with the UV cure porefill gel. Very easy to apply and levels nicely.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
meddlingfool wrote:
I used a barrier of seal-Lac over epoxy and the pc RL and it worked fine...

I hear you, I tried it on a test panel over epoxy and it seemed to work fine. I looked into it pretty well and found people that said their finish started to haze up after a year or more. The seller of RL has said it is not compatible with epoxy. So, even with a successful test panel one year post, I have decided to not take the chance.
Author:  cphanna [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Barry Daniels wrote:
I still prefer oil-based paste wood pore filler. Call me old fashioned.

I am in complete agreement. A few readers will insist that it gives a "muddy" appearance. This indicates one of two possibilities to me: First, they were careless about wiping off the surplus from the surface of the wood, or, Second, they are parroting what they have read elsewhere. I will flat guarantee that oil-based wood pore filler is no more work (and probably less work) than epoxy. And if you tone the filler with a bit of color, it can be spectacular.

Here, for example, is a crotch grain walnut head plate on a tenor banjo. It was finished with oil-based paste wood filler toned with walnut oil stain and a little bit of artist's oil paint in cadmium red. My favorite combination for anything walnut, but especially for showy walnut figure.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the preferred pore filling method
Mike OMelia wrote:
No question that epoxy is a mess to work with. I totally underestimated the effort. It almost caused me to quit it. I think anybody attempting this needs to understand a first attempt will likely be a failure. Sand it back, use an epoxy stripper (good luck finding that these days) and try again. there is nothing about this that is easy peazy first time out.


I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this just so that anyone considering using epoxy for the first time doesn't get totally spooked. I don't find it a mess to work with at all and it worked great for me on the first try. It mixes easily, it applies nicely with the squeegee-like device of your choice (or a gloved finger for the neck), it takes very little of it to cover the back, sides, and neck, it has a good working time, and it sands and scrapes very nicely.

I'm wondering why an epoxy stripper would be needed to remove it?

In another thread, you said that you use sealer/adhesion promoter beneath z-poxy to minimize wood oil flow. I haven't used cocobolo yet, but I haven't seen problems with with z-poxy and Indian rosewood, bubinga, or ziricote which are oily woods (the clogging of my drum sander sandpaper confirms that). Have you seen wood oils get through z-poxy?

I'm also wondering why you use adhesion promoter underneath the finish. Target Coatings says this about their water borne lacquers:
"I cannot stress enough that you DO NOT want to be too aggressive with the grit size of the sandpaper being used. Aggressive grits can leave deep scratches that can telegraph up through the new finish, so for surfaces that only need a light scuff sanding I recommend 400-grit aluminum oxide sandpaper as the ‘go to’ grit. Some grades of 320-grit are OK, but do not go any more aggressive then that. Water-based/waterborne coats have very good adhesion qualities, so you are not sanding to create “tooth or bonding” scratch – you are sanding to level the surface to to create a micro-scratch for the new finish to bite into."

My method is to apply 2-3 coats of z-poxy to the bare wood with level sanding back between coats, level sand the last coat (to bare wood or not, either works), apply a wash coat (no scuffing afterwards), apply UltraSeal-WB Shellac Sealer coats, and then EM6000 water borne lacquer coats. I started using this method three and a half years ago and have had no problems with adhesion or anything else. Am I missing something about finish adhesion?
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