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Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
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Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
I am using Luthier's Cool Tools neck attachment hardware and have a question for those who use similar fret board attachment methods.

I've roughed out the neck, routed all the appropriate areas and it's now time to attach the wooden extension bars to the neck and fret board but it seems too soon for my usual need to floss and get the angle perfect after finish, installing the bridge, saddle etc.

If there's need to move the neck a bit to get things perfect after final fitting won't that mess with the attachment holes through the neck block and their location under the fret board?

I'm thinking even a neck reset will move the locating holes a little bit. Are the holes enlarged to accommodate any movement?

Or does the neck have to be perfect long before it can truly be made perfect?

http://www.luthierscooltools.com/Tools.htm

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CH ... 60&bih=469
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
Let's say all the parts and pieces are in place, the neck is as close as possible before bridge location, finish etc. and it's discovered that the neck is over set for final set up. This requires removing heel material from the top of the heel which will move heel towards the bridge and the locating holes for the neck reinforcement will no longer be in the proper location. Are the holes simply enlarged/relocated to accommodate any movement?

Never had a neck that didn't require some final tweaking but it seems that the hole locations would prevent this, unless they were enlarged/adjusted in some way?
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
You probably could "egg out" the holes in the body reinforcement piece without ill effect. If you don't countersink the bolt heads initially it would be easy enough to do.

Personally I use a butt joint with a single bolt and "broken thread" soft wood insert (deeper threads) in the heel and a glued fret board tongue to hold alignment. Somewhat crude and simple, but so far effective.
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
Clay S. wrote:
You probably could "egg out" the holes in the body reinforcement piece without ill effect. If you don't countersink the bolt heads initially it would be easy enough to do.

Personally I use a butt joint with a single bolt and "broken thread" soft wood insert (deeper threads) in the heel and a glued fret board tongue to hold alignment. Somewhat crude and simple, but so far effective.


Thanks Clay,

Yeah been gluing the fret board with 2 inserts and bolts and wanted to try a new technique. There is a suggested counter bore that could get a little messy but would be doable for sure.

Haven't seen/heard of using a single bolt. Can I assume it's placed lower in the heel to add some strength/leverage to the joint as I can see how little work (if any) the upper bolt performs.

"Broken thread" soft wood insert. Must google such a thing.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
With the system you are using it would be best to get your neck set perfect before installing the tenons and fretboard as they may get in the way for final flossing. Also if there is going to be an error make it underset as an overset neck is tough to correct after the fretboard is on.

With your system the upper bout has to be coplanar to the neck set for the fretboard to sit flat and if the neck angle is increased later I would think the fretboard would have to be shimmed.

I have used the Bourgeois style joint for a long time which has some similarities except that the fretboard tenon is not incorporated into the neck. I made some short 8/32 threaded rod with sharp points on the end and put them into the inserts on the tenon and position the neck. They mark the spots for the holes in the mortise. Drill a little oversized, use washers on the bolts and you should have enough wiggle room to allow small changes in neck angle

Main thing is get the neck angle as close as you can before installing the fretboard. You can clamp on a surrogate fretboard with pins that key in the truss rod slot to help align things while adjusting the angle. You can even cut slots in the surrogate fretboard at the neck junction so your flossing strips can pass through and make it easier to floss evenly in the upper part of the heel.

Finally it is easier for me to do all this before installing the heel cap. That way you are not flossing two dissimilar woods that loose material at different rates.

Good luck :)
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
Thanks Terence,

I've got the neck pretty well dialed in its rough condition but have always needed small adjustments with finish, bridge location height etc. I floss or adjust with the fret board on no matter what so am used to dealing with that drama. Difficult but certainly doable.

I think getting the neck even better with a (surrogate, love that idea) fret board clamped somehow and drilling slightly over sized holes will give some leeway for the inevitable adjustments needed later.

I also see no real need to incorporate the fret board tenon in to the neck for future installs and can see a method for same using my 3D printer to create jigs. Will see this one through and most likely develop my own system..

Again thanks very much for the reply...
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
Terence Kennedy wrote:
Finally it is easier for me to do all this before installing the heel cap. That way you are not flossing two dissimilar woods that loose material at different rates.


True that [:Y:]
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
I dug up some pictures of my rig. It has made final flossing a lot easier for me, especially if you want to decrease the neck angle.

Image

Image

Image
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
I did one guitar with Rick's kit and it comes out real nice but I found that removing a neck was much harder than with a glued down fingerboard. It is a pain to install and remove the fingerboard screws. The butt with glue down is my joint of preference though still offer dovetail if clients desire.

Fred
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
Thanks Terence!!

Nice rig and like the flossing cut outs.

Got everything lined up and glued the fret board and it was a bit fiddly but doable. Will await final assembly to see what awaits....
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
Fred,

Not sure what system I'll end up with but am leaning back towards butt and glued finger board...
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Butt Joint Neck With Finger Board Attachment Question
""Broken thread" soft wood insert. Must google such a thing."

It goes by a few different names, but that should bring it up. I use them in mahogany, walnut, and other woods of similar density. The broken thread screws in just like a continuous one (even a little easier) and seems to bite much better. The inserts are zinc, softer than the steel ones, but strong enough for the purpose. I often wet the pilot hole with CA just prior to inserting the insert so they are screwed and glued. The CA wicks into the end grain and when it dries firms it up.
One place I worked had "cabinetmakers" who didn't understand that the threads screwed in and they beat the inserts in with a hammer. Not a pretty site. Gave a whole new meaning to "broken thread" laughing6-hehe

And yes, I do put the bolt low on the heel, but not so low that I can't use a furniture connector bolt with a wide flat head and an Allen key slot like you find at Home Depot.
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