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| Finishing problems, need help http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51448 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Finishing problems, need help |
I do not know where I went wrong. I had a guitar body that had suffered a lot of damage at the hands of it's owner. They asked me to repair. I should have said no. I removed the neck, sanded to wood. Repaired damage. Seal coated. Z-poxy. Sanded, then wash coat in zpoxy. Looked great. Sprayed with Enduro-Var. after three coats, I level sanded to remove orange peel. Then sprayed a bunch more coats. Let set for a week, level sand. Each time I've done then, I end up with thin layers higher than surrounding area. Like plateaus. Lets just say the surface is not level. Why? Where is that effect coming from? Is my early level sanding causing this? I realize you will want pictures. I will try. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Here is a pic. You can see areas of shine and dull. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
I'm guessing it has to do with the original finish/porefill on the wood. I think I remember you have used the seal/epoxy/Enduro-Var procedure before with success. My only other thought is did you use a different sand paper than before? Water based can be temperamental. Or maybe the owner used a silicone polish on it that somehow survived the sand to bare wood. So... no real help here |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Curious Mike, you write "Seal coated. Z-poxy." I have never seal coated under Z-Poxy and not sure why one would/should. What was that seal coat? Why? Curious is all, as my help and experience is limited but have applied EnduroVaor over ZPoxy over bare wood with no problems other than normal bone head user errors that just sand out. Keep us updated please. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Sealer is two part, keeps oils from spreading. It is an adhesion promoter as well. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Joe, I have no idea. I'm tossing Enduro. Going to do this one in nitro and figure out my next step for finishing future bodies. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Mike OMelia wrote: Sealer is two part, keeps oils from spreading. It is an adhesion promoter as well. Thanks Mike, have you used it on this wood type before? Would you mind sharing a couple details about the 2 part product? Like what it is? Curious for a couple reasons, one there might be others that might want to use it in the future, and second just wondering if this wood type (which is what?) behave a little differently with this 2 part sealer. And again probably not helping much, but have never heard of using a sealer under Z-Poxy but I have a lot to learn. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
http://www.simteccoatings.com/MSDS.ivnu 58x1 and 58x2 Product works fine. One component has a limited shelf life. Spray it on. I have used it before on this wood. No problems |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Mike, what grit are you leveling with? |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Mike OMelia wrote: http://www.simteccoatings.com/MSDS.ivnu 58x1 and 58x2 Product works fine. One component has a limited shelf life. Spray it on. I have used it before on this wood. No problems Thanks for taking the time to post the info. One last question...what wood? ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
cocobolo |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
THX |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Mike, I know what you mean. I was a KTM user for many years. When they sold out I decided to go with Cardinal LuthierLac. I like it a lot, but being a nitro it has some drawbacks. I plan to try Royal-lac post-catalyzed on my next build. It is a prototype for a new way of building, at least for me. I did some test panels with the stuff over various pore fills a couple years ago. So far none of the crazing and checking problems others have reported. I am always looking for the perfect finish. What I really want to try is a two part urethane, Maybe latter this year. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
What do u mean by two part urethane? Something catalyzed? Me personally, I'm done with water borne products. I think I will research some higher end products. I never had issues with Enduro until recently. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Could the seal coat be incompatible with Enduro-Var? It looks very similar to a lacquer touch-up where the surface is not prepped for burn-in, so I would suspect adhesion issues where the layers did not tie together. Enduro-Var will chemically bond if recoated within an hour or so, but if not recoated in 2 hours, the surface needs to be sanded. We don't use Enduro-var over anything but raw wood or 3M Silvertip Fast. I assume you are dry-sanding, as wet sanding even well-cured Enduro-var can result in varying levels of witness lines. We dumped Z-Poxy for epoxy fill work a few years ago, both because of the bleed issues and downstream separation problems with lacquer topcoats. This may be related to the amine blush issue which Z-Poxy has, and reaction between higher pH salts and lower pH (~ 5.5-6 perspiration. Maas, System 3 Silvertip, and West 105/209 are blush and bloom free. Also, Z-Poxy goes more intensely amber as it ages, so can be a pain to touch up on a sand-through. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Mike, The urethane finish I am most interested in trying is Deltron from PPG. It is an automotive finish that Brian Howard used on guitars before he went to the UV cured stuff. I haven't got it figured out yet but, I think he used the DCU2021 urethane and the DCX61 hardener. He did say any pore fill that works with solvent finishes should work fine. You will also need to seal with a vinyl sealer after the fill. He recommended a Mohawk product but I don't know which one. The pieces I am missing is a paint schedule, along with a sanding and buffing schedule. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Yes, PPG DCU2021 Concept clear is a very good choice. This is a complete chemical cured finish and will harden to rubber inside a gun if not cleaned fairly promptly . Also requires accurate chemistry for mixing. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Finishing problems, need help |
Brian, Hardening inside the gun is one of my concerns. How many coats, and time between coats are you able to spray before the leftover product has to be dumped and the equipment cleaned? |
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