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Old Brown Glue
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51041		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:13 am ]
Post subject:  Old Brown Glue
Old brown glue has been discussed here a few times. Having been a Titebond user for at least 40 years, I recently took a deep dive into hot hide glue. After several months I came to the conclusion that I was just not up to the continual messing around with HHG and I also had a great deal of difficulty completing some glue ups before the glue set up. I am aware of all the various ways of extending open time, but I work on a lot of different projects at the same time and decided finally HHG was not adaptable to my use in a way that I could trust the joinery. So, I returned to Titebond, which has never failed me. Still, the theory that HHG sets up more rigid than Titebond continues to nag me. I don't know if the rigidity truly makes any differences tonally, but I kind of like the idea of a more rigid glue joint. Today I was visiting with a wood worker friend who trained extensively in japan, and who does phenomenal wood work, like making various pieces of complicated furniture using only hand tools and no glue. He does also use glue too on some projects and after discussing the pitfalls of HHG, he went to the fridge and gave me a present of a bottle of Old Brown Glue. He feels it has the properties of HHG, but with a long open time. Just wondering what experiences builders here might have. For instance, I can Titebond glue a bridge on with a vacuum clamp and remove the clamp in about 20 minutes and the bridge is a done deal. I don't stress it until the next day, but they never come off. I see that they say OBG requires 12 hour clamping, but I'm wondering if that is really true. Any experiences that you can relate appreciated. Enjoy your building.--Bob
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Old Brown Glue IS hot hide glue, with a certain amount of urea added to keep it “sorta” liquid at room temperature. If you use a fresh bottle, and heat it a little before you use it (warm water bath for the bottle), it will work like hot hide glue with a longer open time, because that’s what it is.

If you are already set up for using hot hide glue, you can save some money by just buying some urea and adding enough to the hot hide glue to extend the open time. You would literally be using the same stuff that is in Old Brown Glue. And it will be fresher than what comes in the bottle.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Yeah just make your own.

It does lose a bit of strength so you might not want to use it on bridges though it's probably been done before. But for operations that take time like gluing on the top and back it's nice.

What problems exactly were you having using HHG?
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
have tried old brown
to be honest
Fish and old brown are about the same to me with fish winning a bit
I won't use them for bridges as i still prefer HHG there .

Cold hide from franklin was changed and I won't use it at all anymore.

Old brown and fish are drying glues and take more time to final set and I usually let them set over night but I do that with Tite bond most of the time. When I am teaching I will use TB on blocks and fretboards as that joint is large and that allows more time for other things.

Let us not forget , if the joint is not perfect no glue will make it so. It is the details that make a good guitar . There are many great guitars out there that were tite bond and there are crappy hide glue guitars so the glue to me isn't as important as the assembly process. There was a time I would argue HHG all the way but I can see advantages to the different glues and use them with that in mind. Fish I use to close the box and braces. HHG if it is asked for but will use that on bridges. Tite bond and even the Elmers White glue ( not to be confused with school glue ) are also fine.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Thanks for that, John, I'm glad to hear that someone with a lot of experience is using fish glue to close the box. I've been doing that on the last few as well and really like it. It's like zero stress. Interesting that you're using fish on braces. I've been using HHG there but it's like a sweaty brow fest. Maybe I'll experiment with fish there as well.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
try "Fish Glue"
Mike
Author:  Bri [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Pretty sure that old brown glue is a Beatles tune.

B
Author:  banjopicks [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
That would be Old Brown Shoe.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
+1 on the Fish glue. I use it to close boxes too. I just cannot be fast enough with HHG. I know there are other techniques to using HHG when closing the box but fish takes all the stress out of hurrying up as it's open time is so long.

I won't use fish on bridges though. I have in the past but HHG is best there or just good old TB.

There's nothing like removing a bridge that was done with HHG, it just comes right off and takes no wood fibers with it.
Author:  powdrell [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Bob; I've just finished repairing a '60 Kay upright bass with Old Brown Glue....yes, it does take a long clamp time.....many hours. Haven't tried fish glue.
Author:  Aaron O [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Pegasusguitars wrote:
Still, the theory that HHG sets up more rigid than Titebond continues to nag me. I don't know if the rigidity truly makes any differences tonally, but I kind of like the idea of a more rigid glue joint.

In similar fashion, I wondered what the "secret" of using hhg was about. My issue is the opposite of yours, I DON'T do a lot of glue operations at any given time, and the mix up, warm up, and particularly perishable aspect precluded me.

After putting in processes to address all of the above, I can't say that hhg is any better than TB on the final product, but I find one advantage that applies to me is in the gluing and building process, cleanup of partially dried hhg is super easy, and dried hhg similar.

Its at this point you really see how hard hhg is compared to tb.

Once hhg goes from freezer to bottle to pot, 10 minutes later I have hhg without issue. I keep 192 and 315 for different operations, and if OBG is HHG with urea, you may find yourself with different strength bottles of HHG in the freezer, or refrigerator, at your build volume.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Has anyone found a formula for amount of urea per HHG? Just an indicator of how much to use and what the impacts are. I found many articles talking about mixing up a batch of HHG, but didn't find anything concrete about urea amounts.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Brad—

Try to find an AL article with a transcript of a GAL presentation by Frank Ford and Dan MacRostie about hide glue. It is in one of the Big Red Books. They talk percentages.

I think adding urea weighing 5% of the dry weight of the hide glue pellets gives you a modest amount of added working time, but doesn’t hurt the glue strength. I think adding 15% gives you the equivalent of Old Brown Glue. In between those two extremes is a spectrum of added working time versus potential weakening of the glue.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Thanks, Don. When you add some better search terms you get better results. :)

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/arch ... 03199.html
Frank Ford
Feb-27-2014, 11:16pm
Indeed - Old Brown Glue is regular hide glue, with urea added as the gel extender, and just as other liquid hide glue, the gel extender degrades the liquid glue over time, so it, too, has an expiration date.

I simply add urea myself. Lots of violin guys do, too, and I believe there's a general agreement that 10 percent urea/dry glue is a mix that allows a bit more gel time with no adverse effects. Up to 30 percent gets you glue that stays runny at cool workroom temp.

:)
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Yeah, I’m out of town and away from my shop, so I can’t access my notes. My percentages on the upper end might be off. But you’re hooked into the right things to look for.

This is one of the reasons why I changed my hot hide glue process to only make small (2-3 ounces) amounts of glue at a time. It is always fresh, and I can add urea to that small of a batch, in whatever amount I want, without it affecting the next small batch.
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
This fellow has forgotten more about HHG than most of us know: https://bjornhideglue.com/hide-glue-info/hide-glue-instructions/
Author:  Josh H [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
+1 on the fish glue. I do use hot hide for some things, but I will also use fish for braces, gluing tops and back and bridges. I've built 70-80 guitars like this over the past 8 years with zero problems or glue joint failure. The fish glue comes apart just as easily and cleanly as hide glue does with heat.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Does anyone have experience with HHG or fish glue and gluing bridges on with vacuum clamping?

Considering HHG and fish should be clamped longer, how does that impact vacuum time?

Sorry to derail the thread a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
I started doing some experimenting with glue times of Old Brown Glue today. At 72, I'm not sure I'll live long enough to wait for the dry time. It's really slow! I did not however, heat it above the room temp of about 80 degrees. Does heating it to 110-120 affect the drying time?Guess I'll try using it only on those parts that I can let sit overnight. HHG or Titebond on things that need to move along quickly. Thanks for all the responses to this discussion.--Bob
Author:  Aaron O [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
bcombs510 wrote:
Does anyone have experience with HHG or fish glue and gluing bridges on with vacuum clamping?

Considering HHG and fish should be clamped longer, how does that impact vacuum time?


I vacuum clamp my bridges for 15-20 minutes with 315, but I don’t touch it for a day.

Ok, not exactly. I clamp for about 3-5 minutes, cleanup the squeezeout, then reclamp.

From what I’ve read on the internet, vacuum is “dry”. Not sure I get the “vacuum boils water” thing, but I’ve also read that hhg dries, not cures, as in evaporates water. So it makes sense that vacuum speeds up hhg dry time (not cure time). Again, all from the internet, so it must be true.

Personally, I glued a test bridge on a scrap Sitka top (unfinished) for about 15 minutes. Took it out and my friend spent the next 15 trying to pry it off. He took a hammer to it the next day, and it ripped the wood. So I go 15 to 20. But don’t use my times. . . Test on scrap first.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Thanks, Aaron. I have exactly one data point on this. I put a bridge with 315 HHG on a Uke that I had french polished. It distorted the finish all around the perimeter of the bridge about a 3/8” perimeter around.

I tried to go back and hit it with more shellac but it was ruined. I was concerned about the heat of the glue and the vacuum effect causing it.

I will play around with some scrap. Good idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Aaron O [ Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Sorry for the thread derail:

Brad, you made me look. At first, I wondering if the vacuum actually "created" heat, but I'm not into physics, so this boiling water in a vacuum looks like magic to me.



Made me wonder if its the heat that's affecting your FP. But my jig never felt hot when vacuum clamping the bridge.
Then I saw this. If you jet forward to 7 minutes, you'll see the second run of the test, and see water boil in the vacuum, but have the actual temp of the water that boiling, DROP, to below freezing, in minutes. Note: degrees are in C, but the ambient temp is 60 degrees F.


How does this work with gluing a bridge with HHG in a vacuum? Well, based on the above vids, I'd say the water in the HHG will boil out and evaporate, unless there's too much water wherein it may actually freeze? What?!?! I have no clue, but I do have a layman's test on scrap that the end result is what I'm looking for. . .
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Doesn't "boiling" the water out of the glue to help it dry not sound like a good idea? I assume you guys aren't pulling that much vacuum with your rigs?
Author:  bcombs510 [ Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
Clay S. wrote:
Doesn't "boiling" the water out of the glue to help it dry not sound like a good idea? I assume you guys aren't pulling that much vacuum with your rigs?


The setup I use pulls about 20 inches hg. If I understand how the hg was being measured in Aaron’s second video, I would say we are pulling much higher than what was demonstrated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  ernie [ Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Brown Glue
FWIW . the caveat is in the name . IMHO too many variables in HHG when urea or salt is used to depress the gel strength , diminished gram strength may or not be achieved . We use 195 , and 315 g HHG. fish glue from ye old cabinet shoppe. Titebond 1. 2. elmers white. ca , epoxy, of various types and UF glue for laminating
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