Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Building the dang thing is the easy part

Finishing is the hardest part to master.

The worst part of the hardest part (for me, anyway): pore filling. If that goes well, I tend to be happy with the finish overall. If I struggle with the pore filling, I struggle with the finish overall. This is probably because I French polish, and everything after the pore filling in French polish feels easy in comparison.

Tangent: I am currently finishing a batch of 2, and having built and finished 2 at a time, I am now sure that I don’t like batch building. I would dislike a batch of 3 even more. I’m going back to one at a time. But I’m a hobbyist, so efficiency is not as strong a driver for me as it would be for others.

Well nailing the bridge on is a bit unusual but whatever works for you...

But I am with you all the way on finishing. I have been finalising the surface prep on my current build for a day or two now but if I’m honest I think I’m just delaying getting the spray gear out.

Hope they sound good. We never know until the strings go on do we?

Cheers Dave

Takes a very long time to "get it". Then, it's different for every finish. Took me years to learn to spray varnish for mandolins. I remember we all started with Behlens Violin varnish and that stuff never would quite dry. Turned out that if you didn't get a really fresh bottle of the stuff, you were ruined before you even started.
Lots of folks at the time were starting to use cat varnish, spar varnish or floor varnishes, which were NOT violin varnishes and did not do the job that violin varnish intended. However, they called it varnish and some were tough, even alcohol resistant, so they caught on. They never had the effect of spirit violin varnish over oil violin varnish which imparts a richer quality to mandolins.
When I returned to guitarmaking, the first few were violin varnish. I quickly realized that for several reasons, this was not the finish for guitars. Even french polish was better than violin varnish for guitars, but for me, nitrocellulose lacquer was a definite improvement because of the size of guitars and sensitivity of mandolins compared to guitars.
Fortunately, I had learned the rudiments of using nitro the first time I built guitars. It was a re-learning process for me and since I was dying a lot of instruments, the traditional way of applying pore filler seemed to be the only way to go. I did end up with a wallboard filler type, and that seemed to work well. I have to admit that Don is right, the worst part is filling, and the worst I ever did was white oak.

Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails.

pat macaluso wrote:

Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails.

I'm thinkin 8d hot-dip. Thoughts..?

Michaeldc wrote:

pat macaluso wrote:

Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails.

I'm thinkin 8d hot-dip. Thoughts..?

Sounds like justification for investing in a fancy new nail gun!

Hey Mike, well done, they look great.

Don Parker, my definition of hell is 2 guitars to french polish. I can handle one just fine, but that second one....

Steve

Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	Building the dang thing is the easy part
Finishing is the hardest part to master. I'm going for passable at this point. The good news is that I get to nail the bridges on today which means I get to hear them soon. That is the best part of a build!

Author:	bcombs510 [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Digging the GAL cert proudly displayed in the background. Judging by your posts on how much work you're accomplishing, I don't think you're sleeping much these days.

Author:	doncaparker [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
The worst part of the hardest part (for me, anyway): pore filling. If that goes well, I tend to be happy with the finish overall. If I struggle with the pore filling, I struggle with the finish overall. This is probably because I French polish, and everything after the pore filling in French polish feels easy in comparison. Tangent: I am currently finishing a batch of 2, and having built and finished 2 at a time, I am now sure that I don’t like batch building. I would dislike a batch of 3 even more. I’m going back to one at a time. But I’m a hobbyist, so efficiency is not as strong a driver for me as it would be for others.

Author:	Pmaj7 [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails.

Author:	Woodie G [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
That is lovely finish! I hope you post some shots when strung up. As to batch building heartburn, I have little sympathy... as the boss says, 'Seven times the suck.' Note: The back row/left-most is a refinish, so not counted in the suck calculation. Attachment: CurrentBatchPlusRefin.jpg

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Author:	doncaparker [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Oooph. I wouldn't know where to put seven at a time. They would constantly be under foot, which is not a good place for a guitar to be. Hats off to you for being able to handle suck X 7.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Yup, I hate finishing too. I actually don't mind French Polishing. But the rest of it is for the birds. I've not no matter what kind of finish I used to date done one to my satisfaction.

Author:	Woodie G [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
1800 square feet in the main room and 350 in the storage area, but terribly laid out; if I were not so incredibly graceful and nimble-footed, I might complain. This was a one-time push to get everything out of the shop, but after weeks of sanding and buffing, the 'never again' sign was hung in that corner last weekend!

Author:	Haans [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Takes a very long time to "get it". Then, it's different for every finish. Took me years to learn to spray varnish for mandolins. I remember we all started with Behlens Violin varnish and that stuff never would quite dry. Turned out that if you didn't get a really fresh bottle of the stuff, you were ruined before you even started. Lots of folks at the time were starting to use cat varnish, spar varnish or floor varnishes, which were NOT violin varnishes and did not do the job that violin varnish intended. However, they called it varnish and some were tough, even alcohol resistant, so they caught on. They never had the effect of spirit violin varnish over oil violin varnish which imparts a richer quality to mandolins. When I returned to guitarmaking, the first few were violin varnish. I quickly realized that for several reasons, this was not the finish for guitars. Even french polish was better than violin varnish for guitars, but for me, nitrocellulose lacquer was a definite improvement because of the size of guitars and sensitivity of mandolins compared to guitars. Fortunately, I had learned the rudiments of using nitro the first time I built guitars. It was a re-learning process for me and since I was dying a lot of instruments, the traditional way of applying pore filler seemed to be the only way to go. I did end up with a wallboard filler type, and that seemed to work well. I have to admit that Don is right, the worst part is filling, and the worst I ever did was white oak.

Author:	Dave m2 [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Well nailing the bridge on is a bit unusual but whatever works for you... But I am with you all the way on finishing. I have been finalising the surface prep on my current build for a day or two now but if I’m honest I think I’m just delaying getting the spray gear out. Hope they sound good. We never know until the strings go on do we? Cheers Dave

Author:	J De Rocher [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Michaeldc wrote: Finishing is the hardest part to master. I totally agree. The only things I like about finishing a guitar are when I get that first look at how the wood looks under the finish and when I'm finished finishing.

Author:	dzsmith [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Good looking boxes! Two been hanging for a year, one been hanging for three years waiting for additional lacquer. Been keeping the dirt dobbers out. If ever finish these I’m switching to Tru-oil and wipe on poly.

Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
doncaparker wrote: The worst part of the hardest part (for me, anyway): pore filling. If that goes well, I tend to be happy with the finish overall. If I struggle with the pore filling, I struggle with the finish overall. This is probably because I French polish, and everything after the pore filling in French polish feels easy in comparison. Tangent: I am currently finishing a batch of 2, and having built and finished 2 at a time, I am now sure that I don’t like batch building. I would dislike a batch of 3 even more. I’m going back to one at a time. But I’m a hobbyist, so efficiency is not as strong a driver for me as it would be for others. Yup...Pore filling was my nemesis for years! I finally feel like I am using the right product (Silvertip epoxy w/ fast hardener) and have developed a good and fast technique. I tried everything product out there and tried every application technique I viewed or read about. One down!! Cheers, M

Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Dave m2 wrote: Well nailing the bridge on is a bit unusual but whatever works for you... But I am with you all the way on finishing. I have been finalising the surface prep on my current build for a day or two now but if I’m honest I think I’m just delaying getting the spray gear out. Hope they sound good. We never know until the strings go on do we? Cheers Dave I only use small ones...

Author:	ernie [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
I/m defintely not in the wailing camp concerning finishing. I/ve always enjoyed the process.as in my previous life /career back in vancouver bc I did a lot of cabinetwork, and furniture repair in the 80/s . Michael nice work there !. Did you get the idea of the epoxy silvertip filler from the GAL article by ?J greven. I like to use a variety of finishes FP, ca finsh as a uke filler. nitro. cabinetmakers varnish , oil stains , ngr , water base stains and filler etc etc , Finishing is defintely a whole other skill set, and those who sub out the finishing process are getting excellent results , as well the DIY types like me still enjoy the process

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Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Haans wrote: Takes a very long time to "get it". Then, it's different for every finish. Took me years to learn to spray varnish for mandolins. I remember we all started with Behlens Violin varnish and that stuff never would quite dry. Turned out that if you didn't get a really fresh bottle of the stuff, you were ruined before you even started. Lots of folks at the time were starting to use cat varnish, spar varnish or floor varnishes, which were NOT violin varnishes and did not do the job that violin varnish intended. However, they called it varnish and some were tough, even alcohol resistant, so they caught on. They never had the effect of spirit violin varnish over oil violin varnish which imparts a richer quality to mandolins. When I returned to guitarmaking, the first few were violin varnish. I quickly realized that for several reasons, this was not the finish for guitars. Even french polish was better than violin varnish for guitars, but for me, nitrocellulose lacquer was a definite improvement because of the size of guitars and sensitivity of mandolins compared to guitars. Fortunately, I had learned the rudiments of using nitro the first time I built guitars. It was a re-learning process for me and since I was dying a lot of instruments, the traditional way of applying pore filler seemed to be the only way to go. I did end up with a wallboard filler type, and that seemed to work well. I have to admit that Don is right, the worst part is filling, and the worst I ever did was white oak. Lets see... I quit riding motorcycles at age 24, quit smoking 16 years ago, quit spraying nitro about 12 years ago, and quit drinking. Ok...skip that last one... With that said I feel like I used up my nine-lives. After operating a production cabinet shop where I shot unknown quantities of nitro for many years, I'm done, plus I live upstairs, so does my wife. I'm shooting EM6000 which I'm getting fairly good at. French polish isn't durable enough for my needs plus I'm pretty sure I'd suck at it!! Best, M

Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
pat macaluso wrote: Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails. I'm thinkin 8d hot-dip. Thoughts..?

Author:	J De Rocher [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Michaeldc wrote: pat macaluso wrote: Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails. I'm thinkin 8d hot-dip. Thoughts..? Sounds like justification for investing in a fancy new nail gun!

Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
J De Rocher wrote: Michaeldc wrote: pat macaluso wrote: Looks passable to me! And I recommend galvanized nails. I'm thinkin 8d hot-dip. Thoughts..? Sounds like justification for investing in a fancy new nail gun! I'm always up for a new tool purchase!!

Author:	JSDenvir [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Hey Mike, well done, they look great. Don Parker, my definition of hell is 2 guitars to french polish. I can handle one just fine, but that second one.... Steve

Author:	Michaeldc [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
JSDenvir wrote: Hey Mike, well done, they look great. Don Parker, my definition of hell is 2 guitars to french polish. I can handle one just fine, but that second one.... Steve One thing I like about doing 3-5 at a time is that I get to cement the techniques with repatition. The rub is when you are doing it wrong....they are all wrong!! Good to hear from you, M

Author:	klooker [ Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
IMO it's a completely different & unrelated skill set. I'm not very fond of it either. There's a reason why a lot of pro builders job it out. Kevin Looker

Author:	George L [ Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
They are nice and shiny. Next!

Author:	DannyV [ Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
Nice work my friend! Should I come by and be the first to put a few scratches on um. Someone has to be the first I look forward to a few more photos!

Author:	mqbernardo [ Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Building the dang thing is the easy part
I think they look super! Another thing, I really like the way you do the end grafts... can we get a close up pic? I myself actually find French polishing relaxing. Pore filling otoh is my crux. Then again, never met anyone who actually liked pore filling. All the best, Miguel.