Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Help making a successful volute

Wait... it will go ON the part I’ve carved... with the same curve as the neck profile at the 1st?.... right?

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FYI, you can hide the glue line without the veneer by thinning down the neck blank before you glue the scarf joint.

So this is where I should draw the radius ... correct ? I mean... in this area... it was just a mark up

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We do one-piece necks on vintage-style instruments ('modern' instruments get a different, wider peghead that requires 'ears' due to the 3" width of most blanks), so the diamond volute is roughed when the back of the peghead is thicknessed, then carved similar to Mr. Sexauer's treatment. Adding a separate piece for the diamond is not something we find necessary. I found the easiest way to avoid tearout when shaping the upper two facets of the diamond was by using a very sharp 1" wide chisel with strokes from the end of the peghead to the peghead/neck joint, which avoided carving into rising grain.

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Help making a successful volute
My build in progress is a 000 12 fret w short scale. I’m not trying to be historically correct on the build really, just using the old 000 Martin as a guide. I’d like to do a volute on the one. My previous attempts have all been aborted and shaved off when I eventually shaped and contoured the neck. I’d like to avoid that ! I’ll also have a veneer on the back of the headstock to hide the glue line that will follow the volute contour. Here is what I have so far. Thickness of the headstock is 12.5mm to allow for veneer on the back and front. The 1/4” behind the volute has been marked off as where my. Nut will go. Any help in this is greatly appreciated. The volute was shaped with a spindle sander Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
Another pic if it helps... with head traced Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	Bri [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
This is where I am at with mine. I am nearly finished the neck and this one has worked out pretty well. I also started with the spindle sander, then used a compass on the centreline, drew a semicircle around the volute area, then reduced the neck to the thickness I wanted at the first fret, and carved away the waste. Somewhere I read that carving is easy, just remove the material that isn’t supposed to be there. Yeah....right. B

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
These pics help. What I’m not getting is the circular post . So I always ended up with a flat ugly knob haha Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
So where does the curve come in? Behind the arch after doing what I’ve done? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
Wait... it will go ON the part I’ve carved... with the same curve as the neck profile at the 1st?.... right? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	Freeman [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
Each time I've done a Martin style dart volute on a scarfed neck I glued on a little block to be the dart. That just saves me cutting away a lot of the wood that you are dealing with. I've also done the head to neck transition a little differently - normally on a martin they are rounded but on the slothead it seemed better to curve them into the neck shaft. Either way, the steps were the same That one seems a little too big, I would make is smaller next time

Author:	Bri [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
SnowManSnow wrote: Wait... it will go ON the part I’ve carved... with the same curve as the neck profile at the 1st?.... right? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Establish a centreline on the back of the headstock. Take a compass and play around with the radius and the centre point along the centre lineof the back of the headstock. Thin the neck to your desired thickness around the first fret or wherever your first neck profile fits. Shape the neck at this point to a rough profile. Remove the waste between the compass line and the initial profile. Hope that makes sense. This will not work for freemans great method.

Author:	DennisK [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
FYI, you can hide the glue line without the veneer by thinning down the neck blank before you glue the scarf joint.

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
DennisK wrote: FYI, you can hide the glue line without the veneer by thinning down the neck blank before you glue the scarf joint. Yes sir. I haven’t done a back veneer yet... and just thought this was as good a time as any Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
So this is where I should draw the radius ... correct ? I mean... in this area... it was just a mark up Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	Bri [ Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
SnowManSnow wrote: So this is where I should draw the radius ... correct ? I mean... in this area... it was just a mark up Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Yes

Author:	Woodie G [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
For the diamond-shaped volute or dart, there is a good tutorial from Mr. Bruce Sexauer and a few others - Mr. Arnold and Mr. Howard Klepper, IMS - which I used in my attempt at the job. https://umgf.com/carving-the-martin-volute-t136217.html For the few 'smilie' volutes we've produced in this shop, a simple belt sander jig handles the peghead thicknessing and volute shaping. We do one-piece necks on vintage-style instruments ('modern' instruments get a different, wider peghead that requires 'ears' due to the 3" width of most blanks), so the diamond volute is roughed when the back of the peghead is thicknessed, then carved similar to Mr. Sexauer's treatment. Adding a separate piece for the diamond is not something we find necessary. I found the easiest way to avoid tearout when shaping the upper two facets of the diamond was by using a very sharp 1" wide chisel with strokes from the end of the peghead to the peghead/neck joint, which avoided carving into rising grain. A bird's mouth treatment - the genesis of the current diamond volute or dart used by Martin and their imitators - is another option. After researching the topic prior to working one of the three Style 42 twelve fret necks we did up over the last few months, there seems to be a number of treatments in terms of the shape of the transition from the peghead sides to the body (abrupt and almost squared off versus gradual), and looking through the shots of vintage work, there seems to be a lot of variation across the years and even individual craftsman at Martin.

Author:	SnowManSnow [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
I’m still learning neck carving and am having a hard time with the 3d thinking... it’s better but it’s a brain programming thing:) Always great to level up and learn new skills! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Author:	SnowManSnow [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
So is it ok to next cut the same contour on the other side of the volute down to the neck thickness? I assume I’ll need to leave some thickness to the top of the ridge Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
The belt sander jig alluded to by Woodie is excellent for thicknessing the headstock and forming the volute. You can easily wind up with one that is too pointy and dramatic. I don’t like big clunky volutes, better to be subtle in my mind. What I do is use a right angle jig that keys in the truss rod slot and holds the neck parallel to a drill press drum sander or spindle sander and go back and forth between that and the belt sander jig to pare it down to a more appealing shape. (Here is a similar jig being used to shape the neck profile with the Robo Sander.) I like to wind up with something like this. I also use a compass to outline the circular shape and it is surprisingly easy to follow with a chisel when shaping.

Author:	Clay S. [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
You can cut most of it away but you may want to leave a little extra thickness and only remove it as you bring the neck to final form. Smoothing the transition with a half round file can sometimes dig a little trough which is then removed as the shaft is thinned to final dimension. Other methods may not do that so YMMV.

Author:	Freeman [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
Woodie G wrote: We do one-piece necks on vintage-style instruments ('modern' instruments get a different, wider peghead that requires 'ears' due to the 3" width of most blanks), so the diamond volute is roughed when the back of the peghead is thicknessed, then carved similar to Mr. Sexauer's treatment. Adding a separate piece for the diamond is not something we find necessary. I found the easiest way to avoid tearout when shaping the upper two facets of the diamond was by using a very sharp 1" wide chisel with strokes from the end of the peghead to the peghead/neck joint, which avoided carving into rising grain. While the diamond volute has its origin in the bird's beak joint, my feeling that now it is mostly decorative. The only reason I make it a separate piece is that I'm working from a piece of 3 x 7/8 mahogany and cutting the scarf joint. There isn't enough thickness to make volute out of the main neck stick. If you are cutting one piece necks then you've got lots of thickness. I haven't done the smilie volute but I have put backstraps on a couple of heads. I think the smilie volute is a more modern looking one and seems to fit contemporary designs. I personally don't think I would want one on a traditional instrument.

Author:	Bri [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Help making a successful volute
As you can see in Terence’s pics, it becomes obvious where material needs to be removed, once the circle and profile are established. I tend to use a chisel to pare away and fine tune with 80 grit.