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| Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50589 |
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| Author: | JSDenvir [ Wed May 02, 2018 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Any experience with this? Cyndy Burton, who finishes Jeff Elliot’s guitars and is a serious builder in her own right (I believe), uses this for pore filling. I’d love to get something faster than zpoxy. Thanks in advance Steve |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed May 02, 2018 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Daring! |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
JSDenvir wrote: I’d love to get something faster than zpoxy. Steve Are you looking for a faster cure time? Or is it something else? |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Wed May 02, 2018 7:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
If you're looking for a faster cure time try Silvertip with the fast kicker. Both Greven and Lichty use it as do I. |
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| Author: | JSDenvir [ Wed May 02, 2018 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Thanks Michael. What kind of cure time before sanding? Steve |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Wed May 02, 2018 7:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
JSDenvir wrote: Thanks Michael. What kind of cure time before sanding? Steve It can be sanded out the same day with the fast catalyst, but I usually apply 1-3 coats with a foam brush and sand out the next day. I keep my finishing booth at 75° or so while the epoxy is curing. It can be recoated without sanding between coats as long as you do it within 72hrs. That is a feature I really like! I can get 3 coats on in a day which is great when filling Paduak or Wenge. |
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| Author: | Ben-Had [ Wed May 02, 2018 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Michaeldc wrote: JSDenvir wrote: Thanks Michael. What kind of cure time before sanding? Steve It can be sanded out the same day with the fast catalyst, but I usually apply 1-3 coats with a foam brush and sand out the next day. I keep my finishing booth at 75° or so while the epoxy is curing. It can be recoated without sanding between coats as long as you do it within 72hrs. That is a feature I really like! I can get 3 coats on in a day which is great when filling Paduak or Wenge. Are you sanding the epoxy to level or sanding back to bare wood and just leaving he epoxy in the pores? |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Thu May 03, 2018 7:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Ben-Had wrote: Michaeldc wrote: JSDenvir wrote: Thanks Michael. What kind of cure time before sanding? Steve It can be sanded out the same day with the fast catalyst, but I usually apply 1-3 coats with a foam brush and sand out the next day. I keep my finishing booth at 75° or so while the epoxy is curing. It can be recoated without sanding between coats as long as you do it within 72hrs. That is a feature I really like! I can get 3 coats on in a day which is great when filling Paduak or Wenge. Are you sanding the epoxy to level or sanding back to bare wood and just leaving he epoxy in the pores? I'm sanding the epoxy level. I should add that I'm only doing this on the the back and sides. The epoxy on the neck is burnished in using my index finger and a surgical glove. There's next to no sanding before the finish goes on the neck. |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Thu May 03, 2018 9:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
I don't use epoxy for pore fill, but I have long wondered about it. If you don't sand back to wood leaving the epoxy only in the pores, then the coat(s) of epoxy makes the finish thicker. How much thicker does it make the finish - double? Not measurable? Does this affect the sound? Ed |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Thu May 03, 2018 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
I wouldn't use 5 minute epoxy for pore filling because it doesn't dry as hard as the 24 hour type. |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Thu May 03, 2018 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Ruby50 wrote: I don't use epoxy for pore fill, but I have long wondered about it. If you don't sand back to wood leaving the epoxy only in the pores, then the coat(s) of epoxy makes the finish thicker. How much thicker does it make the finish - double? Not measurable? Does this affect the sound? Ed I'd think it's pretty darn thin. Not FP thin, but still thin. I'm right on the edge of sanding through and kinda have to roll the dice. |
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| Author: | Paul Eisen [ Thu May 03, 2018 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
$0.02 from an amateur: I don't sand the epoxy because the dust gets in the air and it is really nasty stuff. I use a scraper instead. Eht epoxy comes off in sheets. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Thu May 03, 2018 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Devcon dries as hard as any epoxy I've ever used, definitely harder thatn Z-poxy. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Thu May 03, 2018 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
[quote][/quote]I’d love to get something faster than zpoxy. I had plenty of issues with Zpoxy especially shrinking back into the pores over time and sometimes with the heat of buffing so went to the west system on the advice of several members it is even slower curing but does not shrink. I learned the hard way that sometimes quicker is not better in the long run. Fred |
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| Author: | David Wren [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
Something to consider as well ... many of the "24 hour" epoxies can be sanded or scraped within 6 hours or so, but that doesn't mean that they're "cured" or even stable at that point. My own experience tells me to wait 24 hours between applications if you want the pores to not shrink at some point in the future. And yes, I agree with the poster who warns against epoxy dust ... it is VERY bad news. Use the scraper as much as possible. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Thu May 03, 2018 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
I've used West Systems epoxy to laminate some aircraft parts, and it was a revelation compared to hardware-store epoxies. I have had good success with z-poxy as a finishing resin, and it's sold for that use. The most success came from mixing enough resin and hardener to get a reliable mix,even if I threw most of the mix away. |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Thu May 03, 2018 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
I tried out the silvertip this week and posted my experience http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50592. I have used zpoxy a bunch. This is not quite as viscous, it flows like warmed zpoxy at room temperature. It is clear without zpoxys' amber tint (good or bad depending what you want). It looks really good on the wood. It is hard to the touch in 5 to six hours. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri May 04, 2018 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
'Epoxy' is like 'wood': its a class of materials with a lot of variability. Of the hardware store varieties, I've had by far the best luck with Devcon. I've used one or two other brands and they seem to have changed formulas on me, so that the stuff would work well for a while and then simply stop working. I've never seen that with Devcon, over forty or so years. One property that epoxies do share is being allergenic. Generally speaking, the slower the cure the less of an issue that is, as I understand it, but they're all problematic. For that reason alone I would tend to minimize the use of epoxy, particularly in applications where somebody might come in contact. I had a student once who used epoxy to fill the grain on his project, and then became allergic to it. He could not touch without problems it until he took it to an auto paint shop and got a heavy finish put on. Fortunately, it was a solid body guitar, so the tone was not hurt. I do wonder what might happen down the road when the finish starts to check, though. I'd be concerned on an acoustic with a light, thin finish over epoxy fill. |
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| Author: | mikemcnerney [ Fri May 04, 2018 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
it appears there are several silver tip products. Could you specify exactly which one you like please |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Fri May 04, 2018 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
The System 3 SilverTip Epoxy and the fast hardener that goes with it. https://www.systemthree.com/collections/silvertip/products/silvertip-laminating-epoxy-resin |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Fri May 04, 2018 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
johnparchem wrote: The System 3 SilverTip Epoxy and the fast hardener that goes with it. https://www.systemthree.com/collections/silvertip/products/silvertip-laminating-epoxy-resin Yay! The same stuff I ordered from Amazon last night half asleep while thinking - “If it’s good enough for John, I’m going to give it a shot!”  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon May 07, 2018 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
I was looking for a good filler for white oak and wenge guitars that have insanely deep pores so I tried epoxy for the first time last year. It was the Devcon 5 minute stuff and it worked out pretty good. I think I got the idea from the Milburn FP tutorial. But like Milburn I used it more like a traditional pore filler and sanded back to wood leaving only the pores filled. So I am curious as to why you would want to use the epoxy as part of the actual finish? What does that do for the the finish process? I'd be worried about putting too heavy a finish on the guitar. It's also a lot easier to just scrape and sand back and not have to worry about getting sand throughs. I guess being only backs and sides it's not terribly important but it's always been a concern of mine to have the thinnest finish possible. Does it make a harder finish? Does it look better? Protect more? |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Mon May 07, 2018 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
jfmckenna wrote: I was looking for a good filler for white oak and wenge guitars that have insanely deep pores so I tried epoxy for the first time last year. It was the Devcon 5 minute stuff and it worked out pretty good. I think I got the idea from the Milburn FP tutorial. But like Milburn I used it more like a traditional pore filler and sanded back to wood leaving only the pores filled. So I am curious as to why you would want to use the epoxy as part of the actual finish? What does that do for the the finish process? I'd be worried about putting too heavy a finish on the guitar. It's also a lot easier to just scrape and sand back and not have to worry about getting sand throughs. I guess being only backs and sides it's not terribly important but it's always been a concern of mine to have the thinnest finish possible. Does it make a harder finish? Does it look better? Protect more? I have gone back and forth and have done both sand to wood and leave a thin coat. My main reason for leaving an epoxy coat with both zpoxy and Silvertip (which I am just trying) is that I like the way it looks. Also sanding back always opens new pores for me. Scraping back I find I have less of an issue. What I am trying now is scraping back to a very thin layer with possible scrape or sand throughs and finishing with a very thin coat of epoxy. Before moving on I level the epoxy with 600 grit sandpaper. If I sand through I repeat with a new thin application. My thought is "if I can successfully level the thin layer of epoxy I should be able to level the top coats" My issues with sanding through top coats are always due to applying the top finish to a guitar without a level surface. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Mon May 07, 2018 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
They often use epoxy as un undercoat with water based finishes. On bare wood these can look 'veiled' because the first thing that actually wets the wood is the water; the finish is more or less just sitting on the surface. The epoxy undercoat wets the wood and brings out the 'light' of the grain, and the finish in the water based material can actually wet the epoxy if it its chemically compatible. The finish has to be designed for that. Some of those are made to work with shellac as an undercoat, which may not look quite as 'deep', but is a lot safer to use. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Mon May 07, 2018 4:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Devcon 5 minute epoxy for pore filling |
I can only speak for the Target Coatings waterborne finish, but their EMTECH USH3000 sealer has shellac in it and it does a fine job of wetting the wood and bringing out the grain. I've used that on mahogany, Indian rosewood, bubinga, curly maple, Macassar ebony, koa, sycamore, and cocobolo without epoxy and it looks great. The bubinga looks like you should be able to dip your finger into the curly figuring. That said, the epoxy I've been using (z-poxy) gives additional depth to the appearance and I use that on woods that require pore filling. In my case, I level sand to a very thin coat and any sand through is taken care of with a 50:50 z-poxy:alcohol wash coat wiped on with a paper towel to give a uniform look. |
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