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Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
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Author:  Spyder [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Getting ready to set the position of the saddle on my first guitar. I decided to double check everything before drafting the location, and noticed that the distance from the nut to the 12th fret was not exactly 12-1/4" (scale length is 24.50") It appears the distance from the nut to the first fret is off, by maybe a little less than half the width of a fret slot.

I cut the fret slots by hand with the Stew Mac jig and a purchased template because my eyes ain't that good to mark everything by hand. Now when I put that plastic template on the fret board, the fret locations all sit nicely, but the end doesn't touch the nut.

So, is this wrong? I have a feeling that it is, and I missed a step somewhere, but not sure where. The big question is, do I need to move the nut toward the first fret? And if so, any ideas on the best way to widen the slot?

Thanks for the help. yes, I have been working on my first guitar for several years now, but what can I say other than it ain't beat me yet... [headinwall] :D
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
I’ll be interested to hear what the experts say. The way I would attack that is to clamp a block just a bit short of where the nut should be and use a razor saw to cut the majority of the fretboard away. Then move the block to exactly where the nut should be and use a safe edge file to remove the remaining until you reach the block.

Put some stickit on the bottom of the block or tri-fold a piece of abrasive and put it under the block.

Brad



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Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
I actually move my nut closer to the first fret than the scale shows by about 1/32" which gives better compensation. So you definitely don't want it further away. I have cut fretboards back with a sharp chisel. Just go slow and take small slivers. Or use Brad's recommendation on the razor saw. That would probably be easier.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
I would clamp a board on the fingerboard (as a guide for the saw) with the edge at the line of the front edge of the nut and using a small back saw (STEWMAC Fret saw) saw through the fingerboard. As Barry said some of us shorten it up a bit from the theoretical. You don't want to be sloppy but that end of the fingerboard is the least critical for exact fret spacing - A 64th of an inch at the first fret matters less than a 64th at the 12th fret.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
I compensate at the nut the same as Barry mentioned. On a 25.34 scale I cut the fretted board about 0.05" shorter.

In your case I would definitely shorten the end of the board to at least the 0 fret as your ruler is indicating. If you choose to compensate or not is entirely up to you.

You will have to find a fat piece of bone to make your nut from but that should be no problem.

Looking good so far!!! Slotted headstock is not the easiest place to start but yours looks great.
Author:  Spyder [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it. I thought I was getting close on this one, at last, then ran into this. Oh well, what is another set-back on this project? So many I've lost track. I figure when it's done, I'll need to make 4 or 5 more just to get some use out of this hard-earned experience!

And thanks for the comments on how it looks. This one was intended to be a showpiece, but the finish is just not up to standard. I tried local off the shelf stuff, and actually got so frustrated I set it aside for two years. I have learned what doesn't work on a finish, at least for me. :) At this point, I just want it done and hope it is a good player.

Think I'll try the razor saw trick tomorrow, and see how it goes.

Thanks again,
Author:  dpetrzelka [ Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Phil,

Look about half way down this page, "More multi-tasking for the fingerboard caul..." Ken had builders use a notched caul clamped to the fingerboard to trim the head plate square at the nut. You could use this same approach with a razor saw for cutting off your long fingerboard. (John Parchem has archived Ken's Success Kit Instruction over at HarvestMoonGuitars.com)

http://harvestmoonguitars.com/kennethmichaelguitars/neckprepandassembly.html

Might help visualize what Brad and others are recommending.
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
We generally use 0.020" for most standard light and medium gauge strings, which is the usual factory compensation (i.e., treating the nut as a zero fret when milling the fretboard) ground back an additional 1/128"...or what is achieved with a quick cleanup on the disk sander.

Getting the string height over the first fret correct helps a lot with ensuring that the errors generated by a tempered tuning scheme do not exceed the threshold of audibility at any one freted or open string. Nearly all new guitars we see come in the door have much higher nut action than necessary, as well as errors in how the string slots are shaped, so whatever amount of compensation is imposed at the nut, getting the other elements of the geometry correct will have at least as much impact. In some cases, we've seen high nut action and poor geometry on the face and slots of the nut undo any attempt at nut compensation.

There are a good number of archived threads here, on UMGF, and AGF that go into the merits of various nut and zero fret compensation approaches and systems. One thread I read recently covered the 'need' for the face of the nut to be other than square to the neck centerline...so if you do end up with an out-of-square nut after tweaking your compensation, you can always claim that it is a feature, versus maker error ;)
Author:  Casey Cochran [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Should nut compensation be subtracted from the scale length when positioning the saddle?
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
That is an interesting question, given that setting the saddle location with a Saddlematic automatically subtracts the nut compensation from the 12th fret-uncompensated saddle position, but with small nut compensations, seems to set the saddle in about the right location with the 0.060"-0.150" saddle compensations we use. I would imagine that larger nut compensations (.050") would then move the saddle something like 5-6 cents sharp at the 12th fret, so would be problematic with the Saddlematic, but less so if the saddle is set versus the nut.
Author:  wbergman [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
I have seen articles where the strings are shortened at the nut by putting little blocks under the strings of various lengths, depending upon which string. This is some kind of fine-tuned compensation, and not an error correction, though I am sure you could do this for error correction, too.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Nut compensation does lessen the need for saddle compensation. I compensate the nut first and then use the Saddlematic to see where the saddle needs to be.

I resisted buying a saddlematic for a long time, but a recent Martin with a real compensation problem came in the shop and a new saddlematic made quick work of it. I ended up using a staggered nut as shown in Stephen Delft's article.
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Barry Daniels wrote:
Nut compensation does lessen the need for saddle compensation.


How much of a reduction? For a nut compensation of 0.050", the change in scale length for a nominal 25" scale would be about 0.2%...
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
The Martin I worked on required some massive shifting back of the low E string without nut compensation. After moving the nut position for the low E string forward about .060" the amount of saddle compensation needed for that string was reduced by almost the same amount from the original factory position. This really surprised me. I think something else may have been going on. But this was all determined by testing and measuring with a strobe tuner. The other strings were also helped by some nut compensation. Stephen Delft's article explains it better than I can.
Author:  Spyder [ Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
OK, lots of good info here, thanks! One more question. After cutting the board today, it seems I have shifted the nut by 1/64, or approx. .016". I am building a parlor to the Antes plan, and plan to use the scale length and compensation from Stew Mac for a 24.50" scale length. With that in mind, do I need to make any changes or just go with it as-is?
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
Spyder wrote:
OK, lots of good info here, thanks! One more question. After cutting the board today, it seems I have shifted the nut by 1/64, or approx. .016". I am building a parlor to the Antes plan, and plan to use the scale length and compensation from Stew Mac for a 24.50" scale length. With that in mind, do I need to make any changes or just go with it as-is?
Assuming it is .016" closer to the first from the planned nut line you should be fine.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Author:  Spyder [ Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
[[/quote]Assuming it is .016" closer to the first from the planned nut line you should be fine.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk[/quote]

I believe that is what it is. Will double check to make sure, then keep going. Thanks!
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need to adjust nut location? First Build...
With the LMI templates I have been using the last 14 years the first cut is the nut so assuming a .023 kerf on the saw blade the nut to first fret distance is shortened by half that or .0115 which offers some nut compensation. I also think that at .016 you will be fine.
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