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Mr. North's recent thread on his student's very nice looking project, as well as a few years of observations made in a teaching/building/repair-oriented shop got me thinking about how instructors filter for apt pupils, and how aspiring students (or those builders interested in stepping up their game) filter for good instructors.

So I am curious as to what those having carried students through a successful project see as necessary skills or desirable habits or experience in students, as well as - for those that have spent time as a student - what qualities and habits in an instructor were helpful?

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My own observations:

I am less than an impartial observer of my own suitability for instruction, but it seems that prior and current students here possess a broad range of prior knowledge and manual skills, but a fairly narrow profile with regard to the desire to build or repair. Characteristic of the group has been a strong desire to go beyond the sort of kit-build experience that local classes from Woodcraft favor, and no great fear of the steep learning curve that build-from-scratch can inspire.

In terms of prior educational background and experience, some of the students here have been professionals, in the sense of having had specific training and experience for a trade or profession, so have already demonstrated an ability to persevere through a lengthy period of repeating often challenging, sometimes exceedingly boring tasks to a high standard. But two of the best students here (per the instruments built) were generalists - one with years of doing sales work for Guitar Center, and the other with business degrees from Georgetown and Erasmus, and both did well with the technical content of the instruction.

Educational achievements appear to be of secondary importance, with medical doctors, attorneys with JD degrees, and those with post-grad degrees achieving good results about as consistently as those without.

The one student with what would have seemed to have been an ideal background (30+ years in the trades and a hobbyist hand tool-centric woodworker) was sent home after six months of what the boss referred to as often fruitless instruction.

So it seems that at least average manual skills are helpful to student builders, but two students had absolutely no manual skills training at all, and built lovely instruments. My own training (mainly some woodworking with my father in my teens, supporting Habitat projects as a hammer-swinging novice builder, and a job that requires use of my hands for sometimes delicate procedures) placed me squarely in the middle of the pack on those skills compared to others.

In terms of an instructor, it seems that experience should dominate, but I have found that the ability and desire to teach - as well as an understanding of just how complicated and intimidating this all can be to a novice - is also quite important. It also helps to have a reasonably complete liquor cabinet and a defined cocktail hour...we cannot live on bread alone, even in it's liquid form.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

"The one student with what would have seemed to have been an ideal background (30+ years in the trades and a hobbyist hand tool-centric woodworker) was sent home after six months of what the boss referred to as often fruitless instruction."

Sounds like there was a personality clash. When the instructor writes off their own instruction as "fruitless" that is generally the case. A good teacher can impart some knowledge to even the dullest student.

As you mentioned - the ideal student is one who wants to learn, and the ideal instructor is the one who wants to teach.

Just an observation. When I took the Fox course back in 2004 I had already built four Martin kits, read Cumpiano, watched some of the StewMac VHS tapes and read some of their books.

The course I took was almost all theory, we didn’t build anything but left after a week with hundreds of photographs and a thick notebook full of notes on everything from shop setup and wood science to jig making and finishing.

His contention was that with all that knowledge you could build and make mistakes on your own time rather than paying a bundle to rush through a build and at the end saying “hey wha happened?” My first scratch build after the course went quite smoothly based on what I was taught by Charles. I really thought that approach had a lot of merit.

Having built a few kits was a huge advantage over the other three participants who went in cold. I would strongly recommend that a potential student do that or at least attempt a build before taking a course. I think you will get a lot more bang for the buck.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I teach software development workshops several times a year in many different countries. 150 - 200 attendees a year (classes are usually 10-15 students). Feedback from the courses is always excellent. The number one thing is the students ability to experience some success. This points more toward the content... your question is about the ideal student and instructor. I believe though that having content that is detailed enough that even the least capable students can complete it with some level of success if critical. For students who are more advanced, it reinforces what they already know.

I find this level of completeness in the videos that Tom Bills produces. He assumes nothing going into the video and explains, in detail, every part of the process. Even what paper towel brand to use. What that does though is guarantee success on some level.

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At Palomar College we generally have 25 students building an acoustic guitar (this year archtop, but almost always a flat top), 25 students building electric guitars and 25 students building ukuleles every semester. There are also, you guessed it, 25 students in the setup and repair class. I started as a student in the program nearly 20 years ago and now TA the acoustic guitar class. I have the advantage of being able to sit back and observe, and I've seen a lot of students over the years.

The absolute worst students are the ones that have been some online forum first. That is not a joke. They come with all kinds of opinions on whether Rosewood is brighter than Mahogany, how many grain lines per inch makes for good spruce, what the proper purfling should be for an L-00 as opposed to and L-0. They bring in their expensive wood from a "tonewood" supplier, instead of learning to pick rough lumber and mill it. They have elaborate inlay schemes and a jumble of expensive and generally clashing exotic woods they want to use. These highly knowledgeable students interrupt the lecture constantly to pointlessly add some minutiae they picked up online. Most never actually finish building a guitar. Because this is a school with just 4 hours a week of instruction and 4 hours a week lab time, guitar building takes a semester or two. They almost never actually make a guitar and disappear in the last month of the semester.

The bests students tend to be woodworkers first. They have built the night stand, clock, Windsor chair, etc., first. They understand that your first guitar is going to be your worst, not your best. Generally, they are happy to learn what is being taught and don't feel the need to go out and bring back something tangential they picked up elsewhere. They also tend to be musicians. It is hard to understand what matters in a guitar if you don't play one.

The absolute best guitar I have seen built was by a student who was in his early 30's. He had worked construction in his early twenties, then got a job at Taylor. He worked at Taylor for six years (if I remember right) doing every floor job there, but never actually building a guitar. Routing binding for over a year. Gluing the braces for six months. Etc. Eventually he wanted to know how to actually make a guitar. He also was an accomplished blue grass guitar player. He knew what a Taylor was, where they cut corners, where they were efficient. He didn't have any fanboy love for factory guitars, but understood what was involved in making a guitar consistently good. He was patient, efficient, and deferential to the instructor.

His name was Dan, he moved to Colorado within weeks of finishing his guitar, and I hope he's out there now making more amazing instruments.

Good student? - someone who wants to learn what the teacher knows.
Bad student? - someone who wants to tell the teacher what they know.

I'd have learned guitar making more quickly if I'd not spent so much time being the latter, and concentrated more on being the former.

Good teacher? - someone who understands boundaries and directs the students attention towards the task in hand whatever it may be.
Bad teacher? - someone who doesn't understand boundaries and allows the students too much freedom at an early stage.

When I think back to my apprenticeship, I can see - I was by no means an ideal student, but Stefan was by no means an ideal teacher. He wasn't a natural teacher, he was a highly skilled, driven maker, but not a natural teacher. But between us, we managed to slow the learning process down. I learned more when I observed rather than from his direct instruction.

From my limited experience of teaching students, the more willing they are to listen and then do, the better, and the more they learn. I do vet students first - I only take those who want to learn what I do. If they come to me telling me what instrument they are going to make and what it will look like, and how it will sound, they aren't a good fit. I direct them to other teachers who are a better fit.

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

^^^
Absolutely.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I have been teaching guitar construction since 2004 . A good student comes with an open mind. As one posted above the internet is full of misinformation and can actually do more harm than good. I have dealt with students that had no experience to those with 20 or more instruments under their belt. I have had students from other classes and teachers.
Here is an observation.
The best teachers learn from the students , and the best students teach the teacher . We as an instructor often develop a paradigm and tend to only want to see things we expect. A student may not have that and can see things from a different angle . I have learned much from this .

What are the expectations of the teacher ? What are the expectations of the student ? You have to sent realistic goals. In my classes I will help the student complete a guitar within a 7 day course. There is no book learning , we do it in the class. I also have the online videos to help the student see what they will be doing .
I am lucky that in all these years we have not had any issues but I do remain flexible. I do not take more than 2 students and that way I can share time and make certain the work is being done properly. As a student , if your teacher is showing something observe and ask questions , be certain you understand the process. As a teacher you have to observe the student and how they use the information.
There are always differing techniques and in a class I stress that and explain the different ways things can be done. When a student starts to tell me that he heard on the internet , I may ask him to pull it up and lets look at it. I will then tell them if I know them or not and if I do disagree I will explain that the weakness in the technique is.
Both parties have a responsibility in taking the class. One to provide information and one to absorb it. I am lucky that many of my students still keep in touch. I have many that took multiple classes and that make me feel good. I also enjoy when I get to learn something from the student , and I have learn so much from them. In a perfect world you come away with a valued experience . As a student , don't be afraid to question the teacher but be respectful. Yes you may be teaching but education is earned not given , and as a teacher you have to have the experience to see how the student progresses and how he or she progresses.
This is about communication so keep open minds and open ears .

Having worked with many students in many backgrounds the one weakness is often more of confidence than skill. Sure some people have better hand skills than others , and education level is seldom a good way to rate the opportunity of the outcome. So far all the students wanted to have success and they all achieved the end result

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I've never had a teacher and jumped in with no woodworking experience. That said I've read several books watched countless youtube videos, made a lot of mistakes, come here often and ask a lot of questions. I'm nowhere near ready to take on a student but I've had several folks ask and I've offered to share what I know. However, none of them had the same thirst for knowledge that I did and they seem to want everything handed to them so needless to say, none of them did much of anything other than hang out in the shop for a while asking a myriad of questions. I wouldn't call it a complete waste of time as I did have one of them help me re-arrange the place and pick up a new tool chest before I had a pickup trucj but other than that, its been pretty fruitless- which is fine by me at this point. I'm certainly no master luthier. I will say that if I ever do take a serious student I'd hope that they would be bugging the hell out of me with texts, phone calls, beating down the door etc. It seems like that type of drive to learn any type of trade is getting more and more rare these days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While I have not taught guitars - I have taught.

And I will freely admit that there are times I am a less than ideal student - especially if I already think I know something.... I have been "that internet guy.."

What I have observed is:
The single barrier to learning something new is the belief you already know it.... This sounds like the case with Woody's dud student..

Often the best recipe for students like this is the old Sljod method. The teacher must intentionally give a challenging assignment and then simply step back and let them do it. It is difficult to resist the urge to step in try to instruct them when they aren't asking for it... Let them watch others succeed while they struggle and fail. The idea is to let them struggle and fail... And only help when they come back to you and ask you for help.. You then give them a hint, point them back in the right didection, and send them off again... It forces them to humble themselves, realize they don't onow how to do it, and want to learn... After a couple rounds of this - they often settle down, realize they don't know, and start being receptive to instruction....

Of course you don't let them cut their fingers off with a router or table saw.. But there can be a huge value in letting them do binding themselves, make a mess, then pointing out all the gaps and rejecting it.. And let them come to you with the "Wow, this is frustrating and I am just not getting it" moment.

Ironically - that 30 year know it all you had to send home may come back 2 or 3 years later a completely different "student" after building a couple guitars and realizing he has a long way to go and just isn't getting through the gap between "hobby" and "professional quality"....

How do you folks deal with liability issue?

Insurance

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I had my attorney draft a comprehensive waiver that each student signs.

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It will probably be alright.

Rule # 1. Put your phone away and on silent

I was never a good student through High school, rebellious, anti-authoritarian, the regular teenage angst. I have this theory that we get stupider as we age because at 17 I knew everthing.
Since those days, maturing and having a desire to learn, I have taken scores of general interest and skill upgrading classes/courses.
My take on the ideal student requires only a thirst for knowledge, the willingness to learn and an interest in the subject.
The ideal teacher is different. My experience has shown me that some people have a gift for imparting their knowledge and others seem to struggle. I tend to believe that for some this is a natural talent and is likely enhanced with formal education degrees, yet for others the same training has not made them great instructors. Just wanting to be a good teacher may not make you so.
I have taken classes with some phenomenal furniture builders, artists at the pinnacle of their field, yet the exchange of knowledge is difficult. Others may be not as accomplished in their chosen field but are able to easily share the techniques and reasoning for the subject at hand. Some seem to intuitively know when lessons are or are not being understood.

My 2 cents..

B

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

Next year I'll have my 40th anniversary in the teaching business, and I reckon I've worked out the fundamental element of being a good teacher. You have to switch your perspective from your own mind to that of the student's mind.

Most people attempting to teach early on ask themselves, "What do I want the student to know?". Then they tell the student that.

Those who get it ask, instead, "What do I need to tell (or show) the student so they will understand what I want them to know?". That's a very, very different question. Just as one example, it tells you that each student will need to be told different things, probably in a different order, and in different ways. The advanced skill is in identifying from their questions where their failure of understanding comes from, and then working out how to remedy that.

Some are naturals, who almost immediately make the switch. Others can get it if told, and can learn it. Some people just can't make the mental switch at all, and are never good teachers.

Often those teachers who learnt the topic easily find it hardest to teach it. They've never had to work out how their own knowledge is constructed, and so are baffled by students who just can't seem to get it.

All this explains why some great practitioners are not good teachers, while mediocre practitioners can often teach well. The ideal is a great practitioner who can also teach, of course. But they are rare, and second best is a competent practitioner who knows how to teach.

"All this explains why some great practitioners are not good teachers, while mediocre practitioners can often teach well. The ideal is a great practitioner who can also teach, of course. But they are rare, and second best is a competent practitioner who knows how to teach."

Hence, the old adage - those who can't do, teach.
( this is a bit unfair, as some who are good at what they do ARE good teachers.)

To be fair, Mr. Cox, the gentleman was not a dud...he was by all accounts a very hardworking, ernest sort of fellow who was simply ill-suited to an intense course of instruction presented more as a graduate-level seminar than as traditional trade instruction.

Besides having a genuine desire to learn to build and repair (and thus, an ideal student ), this fellow just happened to fall into the least tolerable quadrant of the boss's bright/dull - industrious/indolent matrix, which is to say that Mr. A was firmly lodged in the dull but industrious exclusionary zone, which is to say further that he possessed the singular ability to do exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time, and to continue to do it with great enthusiasm and boundless energy until some outside agency intervened. One of the other of the shop's regulars likened the gentleman to the Mr. Mayhem character in the All State Insurance commercials, but without a hint of self-awareness as to his true nature. Given the number of different ways to injure, maim, or decease one's self and others in any modern, well-equipped wood shop, the arrangement was terminated before Mr. A's talent could further test the boss's usually abundant patience, imperturbable mien, or the limits of what would normally be wholly adequate insurance coverage.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Bri,

In Ye Olde Days - One of the key qualifications for becoming a "master" of a trade was that you could effectively train apprentices and journeymen in the craft... Along with that - a master was expected to employ others in the trade.. And still today - this seems to be a stark dividing line between the professional journeyman in the 1 man shop (whose craft dies with him) and the master who continues to further the craft through new apprentices, journeymen, and even new masters...

I would strongly agree, Mr. Cox - most of the builders I find doing interesting things teach - if only to train apprentices and employees. Even the 'one man bands' tend to carry students every now and then to freshen up their perspective. Several of the students here have progressed to commercial viability, including one who moved on to John Greven's shop, and then to his own.

In a related topic, it's interesting to see how many of the builders that contribute the bulk of the content on OLF these days were new builders 5, 10, or 13 years back...if nothing else, OLF appears to help make pros.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Lol. Often we find the best teachers were the ones who had to struggle through the process to get the hang of things... The ones where the process was not perfectly intuitive.. The ones who had to work hard to figure out why they couldn't produce and then work hard to intentionally sort out what was really the key to "The Secret Sauce"... The ones who had to intentionally become a Student of the Craft to experience any success...

Antonio Torres was a notoriously poor teacher of guitarmaking... He had only 1 or 2 apprentices that ever made Journeyman.. None of them really of note... The vast bulk of knowledge about Torres guitars came from other masters inspecting and making their own interpretations of Torres guitars... The vast bulk of Torres learning and knowledge of the craft died with him.. And it was not for a lack of apprentice applicants....

We see the same thing with Mickey Mantle - a masterful baseball player who earned an honor as perhaps the worst batting coach his team ever had... He would often yell at young players "Just hit the **** ball.." It was completely intuitive to him - the pitcher threw it and you just hit it... Bang done.

This is the worst sort my friend isn't it... The sort who pushes with all his power and might in the wrong direction... Like the squirrel who busies himself with chewing a hole through the side of the live electrical panel...

And then literally has no idea what all the fuss is about when people come running yelling and waving their hands.... By the time you catch up to the fellow - he has cut every binding in the shop to 28" and has rough thicknessed all the tops to 0.096"... And helpfully readjusted the guides and wheel alignment of the Bandsaw...

At least if it is his own material in his own "sand box"- he pays the price for his enthusiasm and zeal... I have certainly paid the "Learning tax" more than a few times myself...

I say this all the time... when I'm trying to replicate someone's results by following a tutorial or video about guitar building, I will reproduce the scenario 100% exactly as it is presented. The same brand and model of all materials. The exact same tooling (within reason, like not the same brand of razor blade, but a razor blade ). The reason for taking such a pain staking approach? Fairly often the tutor isn't even 100% aware of why the steps are successful. They are describing a process post-mortem. All the failed attempts and minutia fall away as the "perfected" workflow is described. It's just a process that they sussed out over time and it works for them. If I'm going through the trouble to replicate their results, I'm going to do it exactly as described. If I experience success with it, then I can move on to tweak to my own liking.

Too often I read how X process / tutorial / method doesn't work only find out that the tester took 20% of the process and adapted the rest to what they had on hand or think they already know. That approach has never worked out well for me.

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I am often extremely suspicious of the ones who present some method or technique (which if you watch closely is not producing the intended results) and then the person whips out a picture perfect example from under the bench or the other oven...

Roy Underhill of The Woodwright's Shop was particularly bad in this regard on his show... He would show cutting some joint or making some thing - and his work was completely and obviously fouled up.. The piece was a complete mess and basically ruined.. And then he would reach down and pick up an example and proudly proclaim "and this is what it looks like when you are done"... No Roy - it doesn't.. If I follow what you showed - I get a crooked and wobbly 3 leg table just like you did with deep gouges showing on show-faces because of sloppy saw or chisel work. Because that's what you got when you did it... Except he is trying to hide this with the pre-made piece...

One saving grace of many of the videos I see on The Tube - they are honest showing what they got in the end... And so I see this demonstration of a method for hand cutting M&T joints produced a slightly misaligned rung between two legs of a table... At least this fellow is honest to show the results... Yes - it is a bit misaligned...

Hopefully, the maker also demonstrates how do you correct this so it doesn't rack the construction of the table? What corrections or protections are built into the method to ensure I achieve proper results? Etc..