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Disappointing Day!
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50428		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  CarlD [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Disappointing Day!
The end of the day on Monday. Prairie State, quilted maple b&s, sitka top from Brett...then there was this hole........! Have you ever taken one apart to salvage the top and back. Maybe using an occillating tool? It'll be a little smaller if I re-side it won't it? New bending /outside molds? Hopefully I can find a new side set. Took the wind out of my sails!!!
Author:  jac68984 [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
That stinks. Route off the bindings, use a palette knife to separate the seam between linings and the top/back, and clean up the top/back perimeter. Done with care, you shouldn’t lose much, if anything, from the overall top/back plate (easier said than done, right). No fun though. If you were using a ROS, consider block sanding after the bindings are in. The sides should be perfectly flat and good to go before routing for bindings. Otherwise, you are asking for, at best, uneven binding thickness and, at worst . . . well I think you now know. [WINKING FACE]

This too shall pass. Best of luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Bummer man.
Author:  johnparchem [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Is this a sand through?
Author:  sdsollod [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
That's too bad. That was going to be a beautiful guitar and you really did a nice job. ...not to make you feel worse. How thick were your sides when you started? I've actually seen where someone made a florentine cutaway by cuttung out the whole guitar on a band saw. Thanks for posting. Gives me something to be aware of.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
You might try binding it like a Jimmy Rodgers Weymann as Reproduced by John Arnold (forum member). Notice the bindings are proud of the sides and fairly wide. It's a little unusual, but if the rest of the sides are even semi reasonably strong enough I would give it a shot. If you have a few thin spots you could put reinforcing patches on the inside. Might not be salable, but it could be a keeper.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2q_8VMhcYw
Author:  Woodie G [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
If the side has been sanded so thin that the lining is visible, it may very well be that you'll have to double that area even if the body is reduced in depth, and it appears you will likely loose more than just the lining depth, given that - even after doubling - the sand-back after rebinding may show the new doubler for another 1/4" or so. While the imminent question is whether the guitar can be salvaged, the root cause for the issue seems to me to be of at least equal interest, if only to avoid a repeat. The questions to be asked are a) just how did the body shape become so untrue that nearly all the side thickness - perhaps 0.080" or so - had to be removed to square and make fair the body in that area, and b) what changes to process might be made to better control body shape?

Also - I see the rosette is not yet installed, which - having had the experience of recutting a few on closed bodies when working conversions or restorations - is much more difficult to make level and true than when the top is flat and unbraced. Do you have a reason for this approach?
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Thats a tough lesson. If it were mine I would take it outside the shop, have a nice hand warming fire and move on :mrgreen:
Author:  Michaeldc [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
What about trying a scoop cutaway? I did this one based on photos I found on Pat Foster's website, at least I think that's where I found the info...

M
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
I do not understand the picture... help please

Did you sand through to the kerfed lining? Holy crap!

I gave up using a ROS for what you were doing. Block sanding only. Carruth Scraper. Always leave binding proud of surface.
Author:  JasonMoe [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
You could take the top off, and narrow the whole body down to the damaged area and bind over it. You wouldn't lose to much width. The heel on your neck would have to be shortened a bit also. Just a thought.
Author:  Freeman [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
I had a little router bobble on a laminated maple side so I fitted a small patch of the same wood. Its below the binding at the junction of the neck to cutaway

Image

I can still see it and it will bug me forever, but others barely notice

Image
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Is this guitar for yourself or are you building for a customer?

If it's for yourself, I would consider attempting to patch it first before taking the whole guitar apart and certainly before taking it outside and putting it in the bonfire.

I did the same thing on my first steel string in an even worse place: right next to the waist on the upper side where it would be front and center for the player. That guitar had Macassar ebony sides and I sanded through into the lining just like you did. The Macassar had a lot of figure which caused it to be ripply out of the side bender so it required some serious sanding to level the sides. I was using a powered rolling pin type sander and was so focused on sanding away the witness marks on the sides, that I didn't know there was a problem until I noticed a mahogany colored patch appear. After a bunch of bad words, I sanded the hole itself a bit deeper into the lining below the level of the side and filled it with a Maccassar patch from the offcuts sized to fit and chosen to match the grain and coloring of the surrounding wood. Like yours, the hole did not extend past the edge of the lining and I did not enlarge the hole past the edge of the lining for the repair. After it was sanded level, it blended in nicely. I also backed the area up on the inside and completed the guitar which I still have.

If the guitar is for you, you could first attempt to make a repair that you might be able to live with instead of going straight to redoing the whole guitar.
Author:  CarlD [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
I had been using an AC scraper and sanding block and becoming impatient got out the Bosch.... A scoop or cutaway might have saved it but there are several other areas that are overly thinned now that I look at it. Probably should just try to salvage the back and top and start over with new sides if I can find any that match (the set came from the Fraiser River area in BC). I'll put it up on the shelf for now and go on with others.
Woodie, I've made a rosette from Manzanita burl with a natural outside edge which is slightly proud of the top so I was waiting to install it until after I got the neck and fingerboard fitted.
Thanks for the suggestions and encouragment, Guys.....
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
David Newton once showed how he replaced a side on a guitar without disturbing the binding IIRC. It was pretty slick!
I think a small patch and an artistic touch up could make an inconspicuous repair - it is surprising what you can do with pigment stains and graining pens.
But I still like the Jimmy Rodgers Weymann guitar binding solution - a total hide and some extra reinforcing to boot. You could do it in Manzanita. Turn a "flub up" into a "feature" as they say. And it looks cool. Reinforcing patches on the inside can add some stiffness where it is needed.
I think many of us have, at one time or another deal with wood we wished we had left a little thicker.
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Michaeldc wrote:
What about trying a scoop cutaway? I did this one based on photos I found on Pat Foster's website, at least I think that's where I found the info...

M

This was my first thought as well. You have a nice build going there. I'd try to salvage it like this if I was you.
Author:  Ken Lewis [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
While I might have a few recommendations for your next build they perhaps will be too late for this one.
I'll assume you'd like to make every effort to save this one. My vote goes to the previously mentioned scoop
cutaway, a little more complex now because the box is closed up, but certainly doable. Plus, when you pull it off
the guitar will be even nicer than you planned:)
Ken
Author:  wbergman [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX3juuCJtrE

Here is Marshal Brune installing the suggested type of cutaway. I think there was no build up underneath, but I did not study the video that much. There is more than one version of the video posted.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
come on guys. if OP sanded that close in that area, there are most likely other close places. Sides are too thin. This is a bust. Save the top and back, bend some new sides. Leave the binding on. Rout off later. And, don't use power tools for sanding this stuff. Live and learn. DAMHIK.
Author:  Ken Lewis [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
I have to agree with you Mike. After reading Carls earlier post as to "other thin spots" I think trying to salvage
the build may very well be an exercise in futility as further problems will surely arise down the road.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Yeah, like first time under full tension, LOL! OMG, can you figure that? Its a dang shame no doubt, such pretty figure. But smart money is on salvage. It took me several views before I understood what I was looking at. No body can sustain under that. It is what it is. And, I do have a lot of empathy for the OP. Been there, done that.
Author:  CarlD [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Thanks Mike and Ken..that's what I thought too. I've got other builds in the works so I'll set this aside for now and move on and come back to that one later. Anyone know where I could get some sides that will look OK?
Author:  wbergman [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
https://www.veneersupplies.com/search.p ... &x=42&y=19

You might try laminating sides. Plenty of veneers available above.
Author:  Doc [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
Perhaps it's just a new opportunity--like multiple soundports, albeit at odd locations. :idea:
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Disappointing Day!
You might be surprised at how thin guitar sides can be and still work fine. If you do find a few more thin areas (gently press your fingers around the sides and see how easily they deflect) you can throw a patch on the inside. If you find too many soft spots, then maybe a rebuild is in order.
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