It's cool looking though. Looks like a dragon with eyes and big nostrils. Or maybe I'm having a flashback.
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| Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50332 |
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| Author: | Fasterthanlight [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Hey Folks... A feller i know is selling this set.... he's asking $370... it comes with a matching side set. Its super old... he got it from a supplier in Spain years ago.... Q1. Its written on it 'Rio' thats the same as Brazilian Rosewood right? Q2. Is this a good price? Thanks for the advice. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Rio Rosewood is normally Amazonian Rosewood or Dalbergia spruceana, not Dalbergia nigra. Dalbergia spruceana is a bit heavier, but still a good wood for Guitar B & S. $370 is much too expensive for a flat saw set I would say, likely to warp with humidity changes, etc. and if the sides are similar they will be difficult to bend without cupping. See https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUPERB-MASTER40-YEARS-OLD-BRAZILIAN-AMAZON-ROSEWOOD-CLASSICAL-GUITAR-B-S-SET-52/282757285553?hash=item41d5a5c6b1:g:F-wAAOSwKytZLepv for example. Better set, less expensive, (but still not Master to my eye) Have a look at his other ones, flatsawn sets are much cheaper. |
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| Author: | Mark Mc [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
1. It has "Rio" written on it = brazillian rosewood? Well, maybe. Brazilian Rosewood (dalbergia nigra) is sometimes referred to as Rio, but that nickname can also be used for Amazon Rosewood (dalbergia spruceana). And even if the person who wrote that meant to indicate Brazilian, they could be wrong, or deceitful. It looks like rosewood. Which species is impossible to tell from the photos. 2. Is $370 a good price? Well, maybe. It is flat sawn, not quartersawn. Therefore more likely to warp, distort or be unstable with change in humidity. But still some great guitars are made with flat sawn timber. And it has more interesting figure. So buyer beware, but it could be good. There are lots of things that you can't tell from a photo and which make it or break it as tonewood. How stiff or flexible, any cracks or knot holes, does it ring when you tap it, does it smell good, how thick, wide enough for your intended size? So, should you buy it? Well, maybe......... |
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| Author: | Fasterthanlight [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
No cracks, no cupping very flat. Nice ring when tapped.... dread sized... forgot to smell it. Its beautiful wood, i'm sure it will make a beautiful guitar, but its being sold as BR at a decent price, and i'm just afraid it is not real BR. I don't really know how to tell... not seen much BR. The seller is trustworthy, i know him... if its not BR its because he doesn't know well enough himself, of that i'm sure. Hmmmmm. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
The smell will be the best indicator. Amazon doesn't smell nice IMO, sort of pungent like the cat box while Brazilian smells anywhere from bubble gum to flowery although it does loose it's aroma as it gets older. Can you take a card scraper to it or some sandpaper? If you build with that set, be super careful when bracing. Brazilian likes to crack and being flatsawn makes it even more so. |
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| Author: | TRein [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
I've known of Spaniards who refer to Brazilian as Rio. However, I would never use a back set like this as an actual back. Headstock veneers maybe? The lower bout is nearly entirely end grain, or very close to it. Any purported tonal contribution Brazilian might lend would be negated by the poor grain fiber orientation. Then there is the mechanical side of the equation: the back would be very weak and prone to cracking from bumps. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Personally I would pass on that set. As others mentioned BRW has a very distinctive smell. Dust it up with some fine paper first. It would help if you had a known piece to compare smell too. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Very much PASS. It's flatsawn. |
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| Author: | AndyB [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
The back being flat sawn is not the greatest. Are the sides vertical grain or also flat sawn that would be the deal-breaker. As for telling if it's Brazilian I recommend sanding instead of scraping. This generates heat which increases the scent. All of my Brazilian smells somewhere between chocolate chip cookies and brownies. None the less the smell will be sweet and desirable to smell. If the sides are vertical grain and the wood sands and smells like chocolate, then I would consider purchasing the wood if the back looks stable. Andy |
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| Author: | Fasterthanlight [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Thanks for the tips guys... I will pass by his shop again soon and sand it a little. G. |
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| Author: | ernie [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Look for 1/4 sawn EIR more stable less $$$ , unless this is a very stable stock it/s worth only 100 $ usa. cash |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
It's cool looking though. Looks like a dragon with eyes and big nostrils. Or maybe I'm having a flashback.
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| Author: | Tim L [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
In my humble opinion I would not build with that set because of the flat sawn grain. Some people like that but I do not and that looks like a good crack candidate with any kind of humidity swing. I always tried to buy as 1/4d as possible. Here is a set that I am building with now. I gave up a good deal of wood on this set to get it as 1/4d as possible and the sized dropped down to an L00 from an oversized OM. Still has a bit of rift sawn in the lower bout outside of the waist margin. Just my preference for guitar wood Attachment: L00 BR - Copy.JPG
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
It could very well be Brazilian -or - Amazon. Both of those species have a lot of color variation and both make great guitars. For that matter it could be walnut. I had some walnut that had those same colors. With that grain it wouldn't surprise me if it was stump wood. I have "stabilized" some crotch figured walnut by drying it out a bit and then impregnating it with epoxy on both sides. That seems to limit the amount it will move from humidity changes, but if you like to build with a "responsive" back that might not be such a good plan (it adds weight). As to it's value, if you feel you can work with it with it's limitations, that is up to you to decide. At one time back and side sets were judged by the quality of the wood. Now people seem to put more emphasis on the species (and it's lack of availability). J. Romanillos said he preferred using Indian rosewood over Brazillian. he felt it was the better wood. |
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| Author: | AndyB [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
This might be a good time to point out that "quarter sawn" and "vertical grain" are not the same thing. All vertical grain wood has been quarter sawn, but not all quarter saw wood shows vertical grain. Particularly when it comes to tonewood. Quarter sawn is the manner with which the bolt of wood is cut by the saw. Vertical grain is a representation of the grain orientation respective to one of its surfaces. A flat sawn bolt can yield vertical grain wood, though inefficiently. But I digress. While digressing the stiffness is not always relative to vertical grain orientation, as people have sometimes found. Again another conversation. But with that said good, old, stable wood is a good thing. I've never seen a stable set of Brazilian Rosewood sell for $100 in the USA, so not sure where that reference comes from. I can certainly understand that some might not find the wood you are looking at as being desirable. But a nice set of Brazilian these days can fetch ridiculous money (say $1,000 to $2,500). If the wood is old, stable, you like how it looks, you sand it and it smells like chocolate chip cookies or brownies ... then $300 or so if you like it works out like a pretty good deal. One of the nice things of amateur building is the freedom to build with what one likes, not what the market on average may desire. But then again, the amount of flat sawn Brazilian Rosewood guitars built and sold is staggering as a percentage of Brazilian Rosewood guitars overall ... I digress 3 times. Andy |
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| Author: | jshelton [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
AndyB wrote: I've never seen a stable set of Brazilian Rosewood sell for $100 in the USA, so not sure where that reference comes from. Andy Obviously you're not old enough . I used to buy Brazilian at a place called Emerson's Hardwood in Portland, Oregon. The wood was stored in an unheated, open air warehouse. Rough sawn planks were stacked 12-15' high and it was sold by the board foot. You sorted through the planks by yourself and presented your selections to the yard guy who measured them and sent you to the office with a slip of paper with a price on it. If you didn't re-stack the pile of wood properly you were never allowed back in the warehouse. Brazilian RW was normally right next to the huge pile of East Indian RW. This is actually the way it was 50-60 years ago.
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| Author: | AndyB [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Yup that's pretty awesome. Only thing ... 50-60 years ago $100 was like $500 today  Andy |
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| Author: | Haans [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Still do it that way in MPLS at Youngblood Lumber. Only problem is you can't get BRW or Honduras anymore... "Why, I remember back in '37..." I've got some like that 1st photo (with straight grain) that was sawn from a beam in a house that was over 70 years old when I bought it 20 years ago (so he said). Mine smells like BRW. Brittle as he!!, but rings like a bell. Just as dark too...  This one I thought perfect for an old Stahl copy as it had some flatsawn out at the edges, but guess what...it cracked, necessitating some fancy repair. |
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| Author: | AndyB [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Old saying riding motorcycles - "it's not a question of if you are going to crash, but when." BRW - "It's not a question of if it is going to crack, but when." Andy |
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| Author: | Haans [ Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brazillian Back and Sides Set Value.... |
Yea, you REALLY need humidity control with BRW. |
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