Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Two Questions about HHG

1) What do you do with your batch at the end of the day? Do you just toss it and make a new batch tomorrow?

2) If it starts to thicken up in the pot do you just add water to get the right consistency?

So far I've been taking my jar at the end of the day and putting it in a zip lock in the refrigerator and when it's thickening I add water but I just had a problem with one of my last Glue ups so I'm wondering about my process.

Ok seems like I am doing it mostly the way everyone else is. It's just that yesterday I was sanding my side linings and one of the linings just - popped! It just popped right off on the glue line. SO I took a knife and went along the linings and they pop pop popped right off. Not all of them just some places. I'm thinking maybe it was too thick and gelled too fast. I need to pay better attention to the glue consistency.

I've moved to using smaller sections of kerfed linings at a time. I'm now using side braces that are the full width of the side, and I put the kerfed linings in between those, so it works out pretty well. There are only a few inches of lining that need to be glued at a time.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Questions about HHG
1) What do you do with your batch at the end of the day? Do you just toss it and make a new batch tomorrow? 2) If it starts to thicken up in the pot do you just add water to get the right consistency? So far I've been taking my jar at the end of the day and putting it in a zip lock in the refrigerator and when it's thickening I add water but I just had a problem with one of my last Glue ups so I'm wondering about my process.

Author:	DennisK [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
jfmckenna wrote: 1) What do you do with your batch at the end of the day? Do you just toss it and make a new batch tomorrow? 2) If it starts to thicken up in the pot do you just add water to get the right consistency? So far I've been taking my jar at the end of the day and putting it in a zip lock in the refrigerator and when it's thickening I add water but I just had a problem with one of my last Glue ups so I'm wondering about my process. Yep, add water as needed and store in the fridge. Keeping it cold doesn't seem to be necessary to prevent degradation of the glue itself. It just slows down mold growth. I use plastic squeeze bottles rather than an open jar, and being airtight seems to keep it safe from mold most of the time. I have a bottle that's been sitting out for a couple years, and last time I heated it up, it still passed the string test and made a stronger-than-walnut joint.

Author:	fingerstyle1978 [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
I've been thinking about adding hide glue to the adhesive shelf, especially after having to remove and correct an error recently and I've heard people say that it makes repairs a lot easier. Do you guys make your own or buy it premade?

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
We keep it up to around 6 weeks if it ever lasts that long before being used always in the fridge next to my sandwich or on a bench getting used. We heat it up before using it and put it in the fridge when done. No hold heat pot for us, we don't use it that much to warrant it. FWIW I tried distilled water for a while to see if I noticed any delay in mold forming. Nope, no delay mold seemed to form around seven weeks out no matter what water I used. YMMV, your water may vary too.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
Are you sure it wasn't sandwich content contributing to mold? I have no data, but my heart tells me turkey would be less problematic than corned beef.

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Author:	Clay S. [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
I use small squeeze bottles and fill three or four with glue granules and water and put them in the freezer. I take them out as needed, heat them in a small crock pot and then refreeze them when done. Because the squeeze bottles are "closed" and the glue doesn't cook in the pot for long periods it doesn't thicken too much. The bottles are similar to these . http://www.joann.com/wilton-3ct-mini-sq ... le&start=1

Author:	doncaparker [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
I used to cook a large batch and then separate it into small bottles, then freeze, but nowadays I cook a fresh 2-3 ounce batch at a time. If I can use it up within a few days, I just keep it in the glue pot until I run out. If I go more than a few days without being able to do guitar work, I just toss it and cook another 2-3 ounce fresh batch when I get back to the shop. I like it better this way.

Author:	Michael.N. [ Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
Hide or animal glues exhibit a time/temperature related degradation. The longer it is heated and higher the temperature the faster it degrades. Storing it in the fridge helps to slow down the degradation. Spiking the temperature above the usual mantra of 145 F is perfectly acceptable, you just shouldn't keep it at elevated temperatures for very long.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
Pretty much same as others. I use the small squeeze bottles (with a stainless bolt in it so it will float upright). After use I put it into the fridge. I make a new batch every month or two if it doesn't get used up before then.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
Ok seems like I am doing it mostly the way everyone else is. It's just that yesterday I was sanding my side linings and one of the linings just - popped! It just popped right off on the glue line. SO I took a knife and went along the linings and they pop pop popped right off. Not all of them just some places. I'm thinking maybe it was too thick and gelled too fast. I need to pay better attention to the glue consistency.

Author:	doncaparker [ Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
I've had that happen with kerfed linings. With hide glue, I'm trying to make sure I glue things in a way that doesn't leave glue in one spot sitting around while I fidget with another spot. Linings are a place where that can happen. You put glue on, then secure one end, then scootch along and clamp more and more. By the time you get from one end to the other, some part of the glue along the length of the lining strip has gelled before bonding the lining to the side. I've moved to using smaller sections of kerfed linings at a time. I'm now using side braces that are the full width of the side, and I put the kerfed linings in between those, so it works out pretty well. There are only a few inches of lining that need to be glued at a time. I'll say this: With hot hide glue, there are any number of things that can get messed up and cause the joint to fail. I still think it is worth the trouble, and once you get your system down the potential problems are really not a big deal, but it does take some effort compared to AR glue.

Author:	Bryan Bear [ Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
jfmckenna wrote: Ok seems like I am doing it mostly the way everyone else is. It's just that yesterday I was sanding my side linings and one of the linings just - popped! It just popped right off on the glue line. SO I took a knife and went along the linings and they pop pop popped right off. Not all of them just some places. I'm thinking maybe it was too thick and gelled too fast. I need to pay better attention to the glue consistency. Just to be sure, do a quick test of that glue on scrap to verify it is still working properly. I'm sure it is. If you are gluing linings with HHG, you are much faster at clamping them than I. I think your guess is correct that it gelled while you were trying to get all the parts clamped down.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
Don I think that makes perfect sense because they would easily pop off along the end of a run and then were stuck tight after a so many blocks like it gelled as I was moving along to the end. I've been using long pieces as it's reverse kerf linings and you know, it's so important to make the guitar look perfect on the inside

Author:	doncaparker [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
For linings, you could try adding some urea to the hot hide glue to extend its open time. A modest amount of urea won't hurt the strength of the glue that much. The need to vary the glue a bit here and there is why I now cook small, fresh batches of glue (2-3 ounces at a time) instead of cooking a lot of it and freezing it in small bottles. I want the freedom to vary the thickness of the glue and whether to add urea to it. For some operations, I just need regular hot hide glue. For some operations, I want it to be liquid at room temperature, so I am basically cooking a fresh version of Old Brown Glue. For some operations (and kerfed linings might fall into this category for you), I don't need it to be liquid at room temperature, but I do need extra working time before it gels. Like I said, for me, I don't need to see continuous strips of kerfed linings. I can break it up into smaller pieces. But for you, urea might be the way to get what you want. Good luck with it!

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Author:	DennisK [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two Questions about HHG
doncaparker wrote: I've moved to using smaller sections of kerfed linings at a time. I'm now using side braces that are the full width of the side, and I put the kerfed linings in between those, so it works out pretty well. There are only a few inches of lining that need to be glued at a time. That's what I usually do as well. But for complete strips, I don't even bother hurrying. Just reheat after all the clamps are on. Same for gluing bindings and closing the box.