Other than make it a 12-string?
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| Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49439 |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
I have been thinking about adding a Hawaiian style, slack key guitar to my line up. I have never given any thought to what I would/should do differently to a guitar before I could call it an open tune, fingerstyle guitar, much less a slack key guitar. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | Aaron O [ Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Other than make it a 12-string? |
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| Author: | klooker [ Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Maybe Trevor will chime in. viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43138&hilit=slack#p569628 |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Aaron, maybe someday. For my first, I think I should stick with a 6 stringer. Kevin, thanks for the link! I had forgotten about that guitar. |
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| Author: | Aaron O [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
I'm kind of particular when it comes to string sets. I told myself if I ever play guitar, especially in slacked tunings, I'd probably have to combine my own individual strings. Not even sure if it would matter a lot in the end as there are a LOT of kihoalu players here. Just a thought for thread conversation. |
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| Author: | ernie [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
amazon sells the weissenborn plans for $29. I/ve read that there were problems between the former plans made by stew -mac or MIMF forum. Which plans are in your humble opinion worth buying ?I would like to get a set of plans but not sure where to get them from . Thanks. PS have never seen (weissenborn ) or built one .But they sure sound cool to me |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Ernie, Weissenborn are pretty cool guitars. as far as I know they are lap steel. I am thinking more along the lines of a larger body, maybe cutaway, guitar. From what I could glean from Trevor's beautiful build, he made modifications to his build primarily to accommodate a hardwood top. I would be interested in how he would build one with a softwood top? The same as a finger style? |
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| Author: | ernie [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Personally I would opt for a local hdwd that has a similar density to Koa . e.g our local sycamore seems to have a good tap tone.But koa has a lot more curb appeal as per the original slack key gtrs. There are a number of players on youtube playing these great instruments . Have never made one , so I would opt for less expensive woods for my first weissenborn style gtr, |
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| Author: | Aaron O [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Dread, slacked. I would imagine lighter braced top, but not by much. Just a guess, again for conversation. Although you see some kihoalu players use nylons, most use large body steels. Bass notes are key (no pun intended). |
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| Author: | Dave Baley [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
The following is my opinion, but I hope it helps shed some light on Slack Key and Guitars. Playing Slack Key is what started me on this road of Guitar Setup, repair etc. I own a few more than a few guitars and getting them setup the way I wanted them sent me down this path. Over the last 12 years or so, I have spent a LOT of time around Slack Key players of all sorts. Absolute Beginners, to Absolute Legends and lots of talented amateurs and touring professionals in between. I've talked to them about guitars, listened to stories of how they chose guitars, or, in some cases, how the guitars chose them. I've also played several hundred different guitars in various stores and personal collections with an aim toward Slack Key. Here are my observations and opinions. - In terms of design and materials, there is no such thing as a Slack Key Guitar. Body designs range the entire gamut from jumbo Baritone to Parlor short scale. Steel string, Classical, two sound holes (Double puka in Hawaii), and, in a very small group, 12 string. I know a couple very talented players who switch between classical and steel string depending on the song and tuning they are using. Materials likewise span the spectrum. There is a small tendency toward Koa because of it's tie to Hawaii but only as a back and side wood. A very small percentage want a top of Koa but this is usually not for any reason other than aesthetics and rarely stands the test of time. I do not know of any reason why someone would specifically want a hard wood other than Koa for a Slack Key guitar. - Slack Key is always (almost) played in tunings different than standard. Most are slacked, some are actually higher in pitch. But there are a LOT of tunings. DGDGBD is the most common but there are others that are more appreciated by experienced players. So unless the player specifically says what tuning they will be using (as in Trevor's post) designing for that is difficult. Most of the time the 5th and 6th strings will be 1 to 2 full tones lower than standard. This makes the 6th string pretty floppy. I sometimes use string sets that are Light top/medium bottom to compensate for this. I have also messed with the saddle to adjust intonation to specific tunings and strings. - Finger board widths, scale lengths, string spacing at the saddle are all just personal preference. I have met a couple players who put 6 strings on a 12 string guitar..... There are a couple very well respected and talented professionals who play on 1 5/8" width boards. Okay... so enough of what it is not.. How about something helpful. - The only thing that I have heard (pun intended) that defines a Slack Key Guitar in any way is how it sounds. One legendary player told us he did not care who made the guitar but he needed to play about 150 different ones before he found one that sounded right. Most players, and myself included, focus on the tonal aspects of the guitar. In my experience, Slack Key sounds best with a warm, mellow tone that is balanced or slightly bass heavy. (bass notes are defining essence. If it doesn't have a rythmic bass, it is Slack Key.) The bass can't be over powering. The high notes should be clear but not biting. This is a relaxing music, not suitable for banjos. Generally volume does not have to be huge. You can't compete with a couple (or a dozen sometimes) Ukulele unless you amplify anyway so volume just has to be normal for a fine guitar. - Top woods tend to be softer.. cedar, redwood, englemann, for two reasons... responsivity to finger picking without picks, and a tendency toward a warmer less cutting high tone. But again, just a tendency. Certainly any wood paired with the luthiers skill to get the sound right would work. Again though, this may be more difficult with hardwood tops than soft wood tops. - Back and sides are less critical but the same applies. Mahogany has a reputation as a warmer sounding wood but anything will do. If you can the tone right with Koa, that would tip the scale slightly but only very. - Of all the guitars I currently own specifically for Slack Key, only one of them is Sitka, the others are either cedar or englemann. - Many players like a cutaway because there is quite a lot of playing above frets 13 and 14. Not essential but again, a positive addition in many cases. One thing that might help someone that wants to build guitars specifically for the player of Slack Key, would be to spend a bunch of time listening to the players who help define the music. There may be some common themes there in tone, depending on the music and venue, that would help, if nothing else, in discussions with the prospective player about whose "sound" they like best. If anyone wants a list, IM me separately. Dave |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Dave, Great reply. What a wealth of information! You have given me much to think about. Thank you for your thoughtful post. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
I read something once that I found interesting and perhaps Dave you can verify if it's true, that slack key players will find the guitars resonant pitch and tune to that to take advantage of the amplified wolf note you get at the resonant pitch? Sounds real interesting because if true then it would be sort of like the tower of Babel tuning, everyone is different. |
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| Author: | Dave Baley [ Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
I spent an embarrassing amount of time when I first started out, trying to listen to cd recordings of slack key and determine key and tuning. Fortunately I read a few liner notes and got involved in a Slack Key on line forum, and found out that many recordings are done "tuned down one half to f#" or some such. It can be for a lot of reasons, including vocal range. Some guitars just sound better tuned slightly different, and if you are playing solo you might as well tune to optimize that resonance. A lot of Slack Key is played in groups though and having everyone tuned different is bad for even the most tone dead of us. Dave |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
I am SO interested in this thread. I've had similar thoughts. Anybody who has ever emailed me knows my address includes "slackkeymike". Big fan of taropatch. And I have wondered what would make a great slackkey guitar. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Longer scale with heavier strings? |
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| Author: | Dave Baley [ Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Hi Mike Yeah, probably 75% of what I play is in Taropatch (open G or DGDGBD for those not familiar with the name) and the rest is spread across Open D, Keola's C Wahine and G Wahine. I've experimented in Bb or C Maunaloa, and I love it, but just have not spent the time to get anywhere with it. I have to leave a guitar with heavy strings on it to play in Bb maunaloa because they get really floppy with my usual light gauge strings. So that is sort of inconvenient and limits my time in that tuning. Who are some of your favorite players? That might lead to an idea of what sort of guitar would be great for you. I personally prefer OM or Grand Concert body size, with a cutaway, but that is a physical comfort thing for me and my shoulder. I have a small jumbo that sounds very nice also. Are there other folks in your are so you can join a kanikapila occasionally? I'm fortunate to be in an area where there is a lot of Hawaiian music going on. Dave |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Dave, Once again, very informative. Regarding setup, how would you do a guitar that is going to be in open G? Slightly higher action on the 5th & 6th? |
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| Author: | Dave Baley [ Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Joe The 6th and 5th strings (using light gauge phosphor bronze) in Std Tuning (25.5" scale) are at about 26 pounds and 30 pounds tension respectively. In Open G, that changes to about 21 pounds and 24 pounds respectively. Everything else being the same, the action would need to be slightly higher to prevent buzzing, but in practice, I have never found that to be the case here because finger picking styles tend not to hit the strings that hard. Action is often dictated by the player wants and style. I set up all my guitars the same and, if the strings get too floppy, I just go to a heavier string on the ones that are like noodles. For other people's guitars, I set the action based on their preference and/or playing attack just like standard tuning. Considering the number of players out there that play in Drop D or DADGAD, and use the same action as they usually do, I think open G is fine. Now... if you go down to Bb on the 6th string..... that's a different story... Something to keep in mind for setups on any alternate tuning... the total tension on the neck can be dramatically less (occasionally more) than in standard tuning and the truss rod will need to be adjusted accordingly. One thing I have seen done, although it is actually for DADGAD, (I believe it was done by Bill Tippin for Al Petteway) is to make a special saddle that has an added piece on the side toward the string pins. This small piece allows for extra compensation of a heavier string. I've never bothered with this but I thought it was an interesting idea. As an example of action and Slack Key, I was taking a lesson from a fabulously talented guitarist (touring professional for Rock as well as his "hobby" slack key) and he showed me an acoustic guitar he was playing. The action looked like it was maybe 3/64ths at the 12th fret on all 6 strings. He likes it that way. Hope that helps. Dave |
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| Author: | Dave Baley [ Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
If anyone is interested in Slack Key from a young and talented player, Aja Gample is live on line tonight , Thursday 6/15 at 6:30 pm Hawaii time. Go to pakelelive.com and then click on livestream. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
OK, an ignorant question from some one who just doesn't know... WTH is "slack key" anyway? |
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| Author: | Dave Baley [ Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Haans.. here is one explanation. I hope the link works. http://dancingcat.com/skb/HSK%20Book%20-%20Book1.pdf |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secrets of Great Slack Key Guitars? |
Thanks Dave... What I thought, lotsa blues in there and "bottleneck" slide-open tuning. |
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