Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Counterfeit Guitars (again)

...What you had in your hand was, in all likelihood, a real Gibson. They just didn't pay Juszkiewicz to pretend Gibson isn't a Chinese brand.

I voiced my concerns locally about the one I bought, and a US Marshall called me this morning asking where I bought it. I told him if he called me, then he was smart enough to figure it out where it came from, and he thanked me.

Chris, Sorry you found yourself with a counterfeit and glad you received a refund. Out of curiosity, why would you not want to say where you purchased the counterfeit guitar? Why would a US Marshall thank you for not answering their question? Please understand that I'm not criticizing your behavior; I have no experience in these matters and honestly don't understand your description of the interaction.

Just to illustrate how easy it is to get a counterfeit Gibson -- check this out, "Aliexpress" has them shipped right to your house for "free" Ali express is a sub of Alibaba the company that competes with Amazon

http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-les-paul.html

Oh! and note in the listing pixs the ones where it shows the "Made in USA" stamp

Ironically, you can also find counterfeit Eastmans on that site. Yea, that's right: Chinese counterfeits of Chinese guitars!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	Chris Pile [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Bought a fake Les Paul a couple weeks ago. A REALLY GOOD ONE. Long story, short - I got the money back. I cannot tell you how angry I was that I was fooled. It was SO NICE. But then I got it home and opened it up. It's sad... I wanted to keep it, because it was awesome. Anyway, that experience has prompted me to post these two links. First is a "how to" for ID'ing a Chibson from the Gibson company. http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/fe ... bsons.aspx And the second is a story about some fake Martins. They caught the guys and hammered them. http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04 ... tour.html/

Author:	jfmckenna [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
That's a bummer man sorry to hear about that. They just keep getting better and better at it.

Author:	Don Williams [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
A good friend and luthier bought a fake Les Paul a few years back, and figured out it was fake, but felt it was the best LP he's ever had so he kept it!

Author:	Dave Rickard [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
That's a bummer Chris. But I keep hearing that the fake Les Pauls are as good or better than the real ones. makes me wonder if you want a great Les Paul check out the fakes?

Author:	Chris Pile [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Just keep in mind that US Customs cuts thousands of these up with a saw every month. And STILL they keep getting in. They are counterfeit - and illegal to import or sell in the US. Most of the good ones sell online for $300 or less, you are taking your chances. I voiced my concerns locally about the one I bought, and a US Marshall called me this morning asking where I bought it. I told him if he called me, then he was smart enough to figure it out where it came from, and he thanked me.

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Author:	dzsmith [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
I occasionally see them on Craig's List. I flag them as prohibited. Some people even state it is a copy and not a real one. If it has a Gibson logo, then I flag it regardless if the seller discloses it. At least Ibanez put their logo on the copies they made. They made some great copies.

Author:	Alex Kleon [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Judging by some of the poorly built real deal LP's that I've seen over the last few years, you might do better by getting a knock off. Alex

Author:	rlrhett [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
In my view, there is no "Chibson". My limited experience with China tells me that more than likely the Chibsons are rolling off the EXACT same assembly line as Epi's in Qingdao. After hour employees, kickbacks to government officials, rejected seconds that don't get "destroyed". It doesn't surprise me that they make very good copies. The truth is they are not really copies. Juszkiewicz and his cronies think they can take all our technology, all our industrial equipment, all our knowhow to China, and China will be paying them a fat royalty for eternity to use the name "Gibson". They didn't think twice about displacing American workers because they are convinced that they are special, they are immune. As long as they control the name, no one can touch them. Well, it won't be long before the consumer cuts out these characters and just accepts that Gibson is a Chinese company. If history is a guide, eventually, when the masters of the Qingdao factory think the time is right, they will break away from Gibson. Then there will be REAL LP's and SG's and ES's coming from the exact same factory they have been coming from for decades --just cheaper, without the Gibson logo, and without Juszkiewicz multi-million dollar income. Despite the pun in the name, Eastman doesn't pretend to be anything but Chinese. Peerless doesn't pretend it is not Korean. These guitars are slowly dominating the archtop market. I recently discovered a luthier formerly from Eastman called Mr. Wu. As unsexy as that name sounds to Western ears, people are lining up to buy his excellent instruments. They cost less than my materials. I don't like it. I think it is an unforced error. A self-inflicted wound. But I think that Gibson's demise was set into action by Juszkiewicz and his ilk at the start of this millennium. What you had in your hand was, in all likelihood, a real Gibson. They just didn't pay Juszkiewicz to pretend Gibson isn't a Chinese brand.

Author:	Chris Pile [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
How about NO? (^^^ on your "view" ^^^)

Author:	bcombs510 [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Sounds a lot like the push / pull of OEM and ODM electronics manufacturing in Shenzhen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	klooker [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
rlrhett wrote: ...What you had in your hand was, in all likelihood, a real Gibson. They just didn't pay Juszkiewicz to pretend Gibson isn't a Chinese brand. If the guitar Chris had was physically different, as described the link he posted, I doubt it was from the same factory that makes the "real" ones.

Author:	Cush [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
A local player brought a chibson over to be repaired. A good looking ES 335 copy but it was unplayable with a variety of problems. When I took out the electronics I found several Epiphone marked components in the circuit. I think these "chibsons" are made in the same place as Epiphones are made. Probably by the night shift.

Author:	kencierp [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
This company will produce anything you want to your specs. or their own. And there are several other factories that will do the same. http://afantimusic.en.made-in-china.com ... ist-1.html

Author:	George L [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Chris Pile wrote: I voiced my concerns locally about the one I bought, and a US Marshall called me this morning asking where I bought it. I told him if he called me, then he was smart enough to figure it out where it came from, and he thanked me. Chris, Sorry you found yourself with a counterfeit and glad you received a refund. Out of curiosity, why would you not want to say where you purchased the counterfeit guitar? Why would a US Marshall thank you for not answering their question? Please understand that I'm not criticizing your behavior; I have no experience in these matters and honestly don't understand your description of the interaction.

Author:	kencierp [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Not sure this thread makes it clear, whether you like them or not "Gibson" Guitars are made in the USA not China --- at these locations. 641 Massman Drive, Nashville, TN, 37210 1984–present This is Gibson's facility for production of their main solid body models, such as the Les Paul and the SG. 145 Lt. George W. Lee Av, Memphis, TN 38103 2000–present This is Gibson's facility for production of their semi-hollowbody electric guitars. This facility shares the same building as Gibson's Retail Shop and Beale Street "Showcase" location. 1894 Orville Way, Bozeman, MT, 59715 1989– present This facility is dedicated to acoustic guitar production. Gibson's "Epiphone" brand are made overseas

Author:	Eric Reid [ Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
A long tradition comes in to play here, and it has nothing to do with China. Richard Brune has a line that goes something like this (my apologies, Richard): "Santos Hernandez built roughly 300 guitars in his career, of which only 1,000 survive." Manuel Ramirez established his name by building Torres copies with faked labels. "Gibson"? At this point, it's a logo, bought and paid for, and due its royalties, but it has nothing to do with Orville, with Loar, or with Kalamazoo.

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Author:	Don Williams [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Another business within the parent company that I work for has had issues with Chinese knock-offs of our products. They stole the parts right off the assembly line where some of our stuff was being made, and even used our logo on them. We had to stop using the logo on our products to more easily give our customers the ability to see what they were buying was real or fake. No scruples there.

Author:	Chris Pile [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Quote: Chris, Sorry you found yourself with a counterfeit and glad you received a refund. Out of curiosity, why would you not want to say where you purchased the counterfeit guitar? Why would a US Marshall thank you for not answering their question? Please understand that I'm not criticizing your behavior; I have no experience in these matters and honestly don't understand your description of the interaction. Simple. Legal deniability. The Chibson had been advertised heavily on Craigslist by a well established auction house on the north end of town. So after getting my refund, I ran an ad on Craigslist but did not mention the name of the auction house. But since there was only one on the north end (all others are in south Wichita), it was pretty easy to figure out. Also, in the map option - I noted their address, not mine. And the smart fellow that worked for the Marshall service could figure that out without my help. I suspect he already knew, and just wanted confirmation. I got plenty of emails and phone calls giving me props for giving the public a "heads up" in case they tried to sell it again. Turns out this auction house has a reputation for selling fake Rolexes, etc. And of course, the nice lady at the auction house gave a jingle to harangue me. She got a ton of phone calls berating them for being crooks, etc. She was nice, but obviously angry. I told her they KNEW it was fake when they sold it, and she said she was sorry (like that would make everything OK). Here's the CL page: http://wichita.craigslist.org/msg/5701151825.html It's a beauty, ain't it? And Cush - it reminded me A LOT of those high dollar Epiphones that cross my bench from time to time. Those small pots were the giveaway.

Author:	George L [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Wow. That's interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

Author:	JSDenvir [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Interesting. A friend of mine bought a Chibson J-200 counterfeit. He's an artist and a client of his wanted a scene painted on a guitar. He sure wasn't gonna use a real one. I was struck by the quality for 300 bucks. Steve

Author:	kencierp [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Just to illustrate how easy it is to get a counterfeit Gibson -- check this out, "Aliexpress" has them shipped right to your house for "free" Ali express is a sub of Alibaba the company that competes with Amazon http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-les-paul.html Oh! and note in the listing pixs the ones where it shows the "Made in USA" stamp

Author:	John Lewis [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
kencierp wrote: Just to illustrate how easy it is to get a counterfeit Gibson -- check this out, "Aliexpress" has them shipped right to your house for "free" Ali express is a sub of Alibaba the company that competes with Amazon http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-les-paul.html Oh! and note in the listing pixs the ones where it shows the "Made in USA" stamp Wow! Some of those look just like the real deal from a cursory glance. Most of those ran $200-350 with free shipping. That's just scary. There were 7 webpages of them being sold with 20+ different guitars per page. I can see why Gibson would be so serious about keeping these from entering the US. There are thousands advertised - and so blatantly showing the headstock saying GIBSON and Made in USA on the back. You would have to be crazy to order one. Most likely it would be seized at the border and some friendly law enforcement officer would come by for a visit. Yikes!

Author:	rlrhett [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
Ironically, you can also find counterfeit Eastmans on that site. Yea, that's right: Chinese counterfeits of Chinese guitars! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	david farmer [ Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
rlrhett wrote: Ironically, you can also find counterfeit Eastmans on that site. Yea, that's right: Chinese counterfeits of Chinese guitars! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I always get a chuckle out of plastic laminate in tacky buildings with fake wood grain that's a copy of wood veneers.

Author:	Don Williams [ Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Counterfeit Guitars (again)
I was pretty amazed at how nice those fake Gibson's looked, and the Fender knock-offs were just as nice looking! If I didn't loathe, despise and hate the very notion that they are selling fakes, I'd be tempted to buy one...