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Solera with a side mold?
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30896		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jim Watts [ Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Solera with a side mold?
I'm starting a solera and was planning on building a full side mold to use in conjuction with it, ala Bogdanovich, but I'm not sure I can really convince myself that that's a better way to go than adjustable side pieces as shown in Coutnalls "making Master Guitars".
I've built classicals in the past using steel string techniques laughing6-hehe and I'm wanting to move further into the dark side :D, so I thought I'd build a solera instead of building on my usual radius forms.

I'd realy be interested in hearing your guys' thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
I've done it both ways and they both work well.

The only real hassle with the solid mold is that you are limited to only the one plantilla, and it takes up a LOT of space when you are storing it and not using it.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
I'm building right now with a side mold, and have built without in the past. Given the lack of flexibility in making minor changes, I don't think I'll build a mold again the next time I want to try a new plantilla or doming strategy.

But both work fine. At my level of experience, it is easier to keep the sides lined up correctly using the form.

Bogdanovich-style form and solera

Attachment:
box-4.jpg


Courtnall style solera

Attachment:
body1.jpg
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
Filippo,

I think my issue was due to lack of experience rather than to any inherent disadvantage of blocks compared to forms. On one occasion, using blocks, I managed to twist one side such that the upper and lower bouts were not quite parallel - know what I mean? Looking down the side of the guitar, the tangent line to each bout were not parallel, like out of parallel winding sticks. I think this was probably due to forcing a back brace into it's pocket before getting it trimmed to perfect length, but I'll never be sure since the guitar is long since done and away from here and plays fine.

(I've never fitted back braces before gluing them to the back - I need to try that sometime.)

I don't think a form would have allowed me to distort the side in this manner, so perhaps safer, but then again I've already learned that lesson and haven't had it recur using the Courtnall solera. I think it was just me, at the time.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
The only real advantage for the solid form is that the shape is absolute. With the brackets there is the chance that you didn't position them correctly or that they may have moved and you didn't notice...stuff like that.

That being said, they also offer advantages: easier storage and flexibility for plantilla already mentioned. They also make clamping a bit easier, are easy to make, and use a lot less material.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
In his early days Romanillos simply glued on soundboard off cuts around the pencil line. No Blocks, no mould. It's the method that I use but it is easy to introduce twist into the sides. That's the bit you really have to look out for.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
Thanks guys, I guess I'll probably go with the solid side mold as I'm used to working that way and they give me a solid platform to clamp the top and back to the sides. I use a radius dish that I bolt to the side mold to provid clamping pressure.
Author:  TomDl [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
I have built my Spanish necks using an even more primitive method, just a board. You get like a 2x4 that is perfectly squared up and straight. I place in in a vise, and place pieces of engine gasket material so the nut, and 12th fret positions are whatever offset you want above the bridge contact position. You glue the soundboard to the neck, then you clamp the neck to the board face down at the nut, 12th fret, and the bridge position rests on the third point of contact.You rely on the plantilla outline drawn on the inside of the board, and the gains on the sides, lots of light clamps to old it all together.

This system is actually pretty good, and eliminated a lot of problem with domed tops.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
Tom,

Pictures?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
TomDl wrote:
You get like a 2x4 that is perfectly squared up and straight.


You obviously didn't buy that 2x4 at The Borg. laughing6-hehe

Filippo


Or you spent hours of moving wood around to find one! I hope you had some help.
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
Jim Kirby wrote:
Tom,

Pictures?

Check out John Platko's post a ways down in this thread, he made a nice diagram of how the 2x4 method works. I love the free-flowing style of it, and am nearly ready to assemble one using that method (alongside my second bolt-on, which I do entirely freestanding). I bought a leveling beam from this guy http://shop.ebay.com/md4stone/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340 to use instead of trying to get a 2x4 perfectly flat and then having to re-check it every time. Lots of other good uses for it as well. Very cool tool, sort of like a 2 dimensional straight edge :)

But if you want the mold functionality to get the sides exactly the same every time, then I'd go with a solera and blocks. Only reason I see for using solid molds is to allow assembling and sanding on the rims as an independent structure before gluing on the plates. Building solera-style where you start with the top clamped to the board, the solid mold just seems like all kinds of waste.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
This is what my form has evolved to from a fixed form. I segmented the pieces and made them adjustable to better snug the sides up agianst the edge of the profiled top.
Attachment:
Laplante#96BackLiningsglue.jpg
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
Now that looks like a good idea, David!
Author:  TomDl [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
I am in the process of creating a very mouth watering jig for building this way. Sorta a long term project. I just got anodizing quotes back. I asked for hard anodizing, and the price is a little eye watering. I kinda feel this method needs an upgrade, it just isn't complicated enough for people to take seriously. So I am building a multi thousand dollar jig, with all kinds of adjustments and black anodizing, Orange adjustable handles. It also involves a whole new take on the gobar deck. Inspired by some tooling I have for bike frames.

But really all I did in the past, was take a straight stick, pile two pieces of 1/8" gasket material under the clamping points, and move a single layer into the bridge area until I got the right offset.

Jokes about 2x aside, ten years ago the Home Depot stuff was good enough to build an archtop out of, at least for one of those "I built an archtop out of 2x lumber" projects. Now the local stuff can't be hand planed. But these remarks also show how easy it is to dismiss this method. It works to align a guitar with full spherical soundboard, perfectly, and you can actually re-plane to perfection the jig every time you use it, if you needed to. Try that with your MDF spherical forms and body jigs.

That said, no method is perfect, and I still have a lot of questions in my mind about how to deal with the need to make multiple models that include Spanish and two piece approaches. I also worry, that with the internet you get all kinds of experts. how long can it be before folks are scrutinizing guitars with a square and calipers and then blabbing about all the off angles in a built. I'm not sure any one method is actually immune, but some builders who used to build more flexibly have moved to molds, so it is one more thing to evaluate.

I got onto this because of early Richard Schneider content. I thought that whether people liked his guitars or not, they all said he was a pro's pro, and he built this way. The one difficulty is that the method prefers light clamps. Schneider had special Al C clamps. But these days there are a lot of cheap home made and commercial options. Also as an occasional boat builder, it came naturally.
Author:  TomDl [ Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solera with a side mold?
I read the Platko article, and that is sorta it. I build with the board in the Tucker vise, and then Paddle goes on, so the guitar is face down. And the sides go on above that.
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