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Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
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Author:  sea.of.white [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
... but I want to get it right the first time!

It's a long story, but this guitar was given to me by a friend to practice on. At the time, he had painted it a horrid textured purple (don't get me started). That was over 10 years ago - most of that time it has set unused. Fast forward to about 2 months ago when my 6 year old started taking lessons, and guess what - her dad decided to pick it up again too. It didn't take long before I was so frustrated with the instrument that I was in the basement stripping the purple off. Besides the paint, it also has a severely cracked bridge (in '63, LG0's came with a plastic bridge) and some cracks on the back of the body running with the grain. It's all mahogany, and the new bridge is black walnut.

Today, the purple is gone (yay!), I've glued and pressed the cracks, and have spend countless hours working the wood with fine steel wool. At the moment, it's looking pretty good, and I'm trying to get ready for the next steps. I've also been doing a TON of reading and asking questions. I've learned a lot, but there are still some holes and I think this looks like a good group to bounce this off of

1> fitting the bridge - I have the replacement, but need to shape it a bit as the soundboard is a bit 'bellied'
2> attach the bridge - I have hide glue and the original to use for location, just gotta get clamps deep enough
3> ream the peg holes to the right size
4> apply grain filler - I've watched Todd's YouTube videos and I think I can manage that now that I know to apply the epoxy to the bare wood
5> paint the headstock and apply new graphic - I'm going to paint the face black and put the logo on. Will a vinyl decal cause issues under nitrocellulose lacquer?
6> finishing the neck - I haven't found a lot of info here, but I gather that an oil finish (tung oil, tru-oil...) may be preferred to lacquer?
7> sealer and lacquer coats on the body - I've found a lot of info on this, but am unclear as to how to finish the bridge. Does it get sealed an lacquered like the body? or an oil finish like the neck?
8> reattach hardware and strings.

thoughts? corrections? questions?
Author:  the Padma [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
Yo, white

me don't use nirto, so don't know about the decal.

finishes are a personal persuasion...choose what ever spins your wheels

But now that you have had steel wool on that sucker. DO NOT, repeat, do not use a water born finish as the steel wool leaves all sorts of micro slivers that might just rust out and turn into the spoted black plague that infest the entire surface in a matter of minutes. Some claim that a spray of shellac can prevent it....to that me say pfft

Oh and regarding "getting it right"...

There ain't no right and there ain't no wrong! All there is, is the is and the consequences of our choice. But thats metaphysics 101 and this is OFL so don't pay any attention to me babblings.

blessings
the
Padma
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
A few suggestions- but I'm strictly an amateur at this stuff, so don't take me too seriously!

sea.of.white wrote:
1> fitting the bridge - I have the replacement, but need to shape it a bit as the soundboard is a bit 'bellied'

Shaping should be easy-tape sandpaper to the top. Perhaps consider an ebony bridge? (Get that black plastic look!)
sea.of.white wrote:
2> attach the bridge - I have hide glue and the original to use for location, just gotta get clamps deep enough

Make sure you get the bare top wood exposed and uncontaminated by paint stripper, old finish, etc. You can improvise clamping arrangements if necessary (bolts through bridge pin holes with a caul, and many others- just make sure you are supporting the top properly. Even heavy clamps can 'crank' the top enough to damage.
sea.of.white wrote:
3> ream the peg holes to the right size

Don't forget ramps/slots for the strings
sea.of.white wrote:
4> apply grain filler - I've watched Todd's YouTube videos and I think I can manage that now that I know to apply the epoxy to the bare wood

Sometimes the original filler will be left behind, depending on how careful you were with the stripping job. Are there pores showing?
sea.of.white wrote:
5> paint the headstock and apply new graphic - I'm going to paint the face black and put the logo on. Will a vinyl decal cause issues under nitrocellulose lacquer?

Best to get a few decals and test. Sometimes a 'mist' coat or two is helpful.
sea.of.white wrote:
6> finishing the neck - I haven't found a lot of info here, but I gather that an oil finish (tung oil, tru-oil...) may be preferred to lacquer?

Lacquer is fine for necks, but oil does work. If you can find some scrap mahogany, do some tests - including your pore filling.
sea.of.white wrote:
7> sealer and lacquer coats on the body - I've found a lot of info on this, but am unclear as to how to finish the bridge. Does it get sealed an lacquered like the body? or an oil finish like the neck?

It's easier to get the top finish flat if the bridge is glued after the finish is done. Lots of options on this one- keep reading...
Generally, steel string bridges are not finished 'shiny', so probably oil is the route to go. Often 'fingerboard oil' is all that is required for the bridge. With ebony or rosewood, just sanding can do it for many folks. Lacquer would tend to chip, etc from the wear and tear of string pressure, I think.
Good project- I had a LG1 and replaced the plastic bridge with ebony, 'back in the day'...
Cheers
John
Author:  sea.of.white [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
Great tips - thanks, John! Looks like I posted this in the wrong part of the forum - this is neither a video nor a tutorial.

JohnAbercrombie wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
1> fitting the bridge - I have the replacement, but need to shape it a bit as the soundboard is a bit 'bellied'

Shaping should be easy-tape sandpaper to the top. Perhaps consider an ebony bridge? (Get that black plastic look!)

I do have a replacement already - but I do like the idea of ebonizing it with some oil-based stain.

JohnAbercrombie wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
4> apply grain filler - I've watched Todd's YouTube videos and I think I can manage that now that I know to apply the epoxy to the bare wood

Sometimes the original filler will be left behind, depending on how careful you were with the stripping job. Are there pores showing?

Oh yeah, we're down to the grain and open pores. It had been stripped prior to it's previous paint job (the one I removed). Was really more a matter of getting the paint out of the pores.

JohnAbercrombie wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
6> finishing the neck - I haven't found a lot of info here, but I gather that an oil finish (tung oil, tru-oil...) may be preferred to lacquer?

Lacquer is fine for necks, but oil does work. If you can find some scrap mahogany, do some tests - including your pore filling.

Ahhhh, test pieces.... i may have some to try this out on.

JohnAbercrombie wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
7> sealer and lacquer coats on the body - I've found a lot of info on this, but am unclear as to how to finish the bridge. Does it get sealed an lacquered like the body? or an oil finish like the neck?

It's easier to get the top finish flat if the bridge is glued after the finish is done. Lots of options on this one- keep reading...
Generally, steel string bridges are not finished 'shiny', so probably oil is the route to go. Often 'fingerboard oil' is all that is required for the bridge. With ebony or rosewood, just sanding can do it for many folks. Lacquer would tend to chip, etc from the wear and tear of string pressure, I think.

Now this is starting to make sense... So the same oil sealer I use for the neck, I could use on the bridge. So if I attach the bridge after finishing the top, then would I mask that area, or have to remove that finish later before attaching the bridge?
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
sea.of.white wrote:
So if I attach the bridge after finishing the top, then would I mask that area, or have to remove that finish later before attaching the bridge?


I've done it both ways, and I prefer not to mask. If you put masking tape down, the top isn't 'flat' any more and it causes problems when sanding the finish flat before buffing, I've found.

Better to just finish the top and then scrape the finish away where you will glue. Be careful not to 'scribe' too deeply around the bridge- you can weaken the top wood and provide a nice line for the bridge to peel off with a thin layer of top attached.


You might be able to get the discussion moved to the Guitar Building forum if you send a pm to one of the sysops/admin guys here.

Cheers
John
Author:  Ed Haney [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
sea.of.white wrote:
1> fitting the bridge - I have the replacement, but need to shape it a bit as the soundboard is a bit 'bellied' - Good Plan.
2> attach the bridge - I have hide glue and the original to use for location, just gotta get clamps deep enough - DO NOT DEPEND ON THE OLD LOCATION AS BEING ACCURATE. It is not unusual that bridges were located in error at the factory. This should be checked so that you know exactly where to put the saddle/bridge. This is not hard, but does requires some knowledge and an execution plan. Hide glue is considered best IF you have some experience/practice. Are you sure that you are ready for using hide glue? Titebond would work fine too and give you much more time to work the repair.
3> ream the peg holes to the right size - Are you planning 3 or 5 degrees taper?
4> apply grain filler - I've watched Todd's YouTube videos and I think I can manage that now that I know to apply the epoxy to the bare wood
5> paint the headstock and apply new graphic - I'm going to paint the face black and put the logo on. Will a vinyl decal cause issues under nitrocellulose lacquer? - Vinyl WILL react in a negative way with nitro.
6> finishing the neck - I haven't found a lot of info here, but I gather that an oil finish (tung oil, tru-oil...) may be preferred to lacquer?
7> sealer and lacquer coats on the body - I've found a lot of info on this, but am unclear as to how to finish the bridge. Does it get sealed an lacquered like the body? or an oil finish like the neck? - Bridge is NOT typically finished with lacquer. Oil finish on exposed surfaces is good.
8> reattach hardware and strings. - Have you inspected the bridge plate inside the body. The strings seat on this and need a solid surfact. It may likely be damaged now. If so, you need a plan for replacement or repair.

thoughts? corrections? questions?


Good luck.

Ed
Author:  letseatpaste [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
I'm certainly not a repair expert, but I do have an old LGO that I pulled the back off of some years ago before I decided to put it away till I felt like I sort of knew what I was doing. Make sure and inspect the inside for structural damage. If your bridge was split there's a very good chance the bridge plate on the inside has been compromised, too. You might also have some loose braces. You might also have neck angle issues if the body has distorted that much, which is common on these older ladder braced guitars, so a neck reset could be in order.

I also had to deal with some pretty poor repair attempts which resulted in the top being flooded with thick epoxy which was a bear to remove. I think they were trying to sister in a brace next to one that had split.

Just for grins, here's what I started with.
Image
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
Ed Haney wrote:
DO NOT DEPEND ON THE OLD LOCATION AS BEING ACCURATE. It is not unusual that bridges were located in error at the factory. This should be checked so that you know exactly where to put the saddle/bridge. This is not hard, but does requires some knowledge and an execution plan.


Good point. One option (if you must put the bridge in the same location for cosmetic reasons) is to cut the saddle slot after gluing the bridge to the top.
Don Teeter's book shows how to do this with a Dremel+simple jig, and it does work. That's what I did when I replaced the (plastic) bridge on my LG1 with an ebony replacement.

Cheers
John
Author:  sea.of.white [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
Ed Haney wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
2> attach the bridge - I have hide glue and the original to use for location, just gotta get clamps deep enough
- DO NOT DEPEND ON THE OLD LOCATION AS BEING ACCURATE. It is not unusual that bridges were located in error at the factory. This should be checked so that you know exactly where to put the saddle/bridge. This is not hard, but does requires some knowledge and an execution plan.

good point, may as well check that before replacing it.

Ed Haney wrote:
Hide glue is considered best IF you have some experience/practice. Are you sure that you are ready for using hide glue? Titebond would work fine too and give you much more time to work the repair.

No worries here.

Ed Haney wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
3> ream the peg holes to the right size
- Are you planning 3 or 5 degrees taper?

I'm planning for 5 - I can always take more off if I need to.

Ed Haney wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
5> paint the headstock and apply new graphic - I'm going to paint the face black and put the logo on. Will a vinyl decal cause issues under nitrocellulose lacquer?
- Vinyl WILL react in a negative way with nitro.

Right. I've since found places that will make nice (not inkjet) waterslide decals, which looks like the way to go.

sea.of.white wrote:
6> finishing the neck - I haven't found a lot of info here, but I gather that an oil finish (tung oil, tru-oil...) may be preferred to lacquer?

I'm trying to find a local place that sells Tru-oil - anyone know what retailers carry this stuff? Shipping usually comes out to be more than the product.

Ed Haney wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
7> sealer and lacquer coats on the body - I've found a lot of info on this, but am unclear as to how to finish the bridge. Does it get sealed an lacquered like the body? or an oil finish like the neck?
- Bridge is NOT typically finished with lacquer. Oil finish on exposed surfaces is good.

check. Will use oil finish as well.

Ed Haney wrote:
sea.of.white wrote:
8> reattach hardware and strings.
- Have you inspected the bridge plate inside the body. The strings seat on this and need a solid surfact. It may likely be damaged now. If so, you need a plan for replacement or repair.

Another good point. I'll get a mirror and inspect it tonight.



Big thanks!
Author:  sea.of.white [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
letseatpaste wrote:
I'm certainly not a repair expert, but I do have an old LGO that I pulled the back off of some years ago before I decided to put it away till I felt like I sort of knew what I was doing. Make sure and inspect the inside for structural damage. If your bridge was split there's a very good chance the bridge plate on the inside has been compromised, too. You might also have some loose braces. You might also have neck angle issues if the body has distorted that much, which is common on these older ladder braced guitars, so a neck reset could be in order.

I also had to deal with some pretty poor repair attempts which resulted in the top being flooded with thick epoxy which was a bear to remove. I think they were trying to sister in a brace next to one that had split.


Wow, what a mess. Mine got a bit of a grope when I removed the bridge. Never felt anything like that in there, but I'll have a look tonight and give it a good inspection.

I'm rather optimistic about the rest of the struture. The plastic bridge was in lousy shape, but since the previous owner mounted it over the top of this ridiculous heavy texture paint (think rough orange peel), I think that was the main culpret. It didn't have a firm fit to the soundboard and one of the screws was missing (like the one in your pic). Thus the poor fit put a lot of extra stress on the already failing plastic bridge.

But I'll check it out. Thanks!
Author:  mhammond [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
Sea:
Tru oil is sold at most Woodcraft stores, they seem to be almost everywhere. The most common use for Tru oil is on gunstocks so try gunsmiths, or large sporting goods stores. Also try to get a fresh bottle as it does get old on the shelf in a small store..... Mikey
Author:  woody b [ Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Repairing and refinishing a Gibson LG0...
I suspect the bellying on the top may be caused by bridgeplate problems. The old LGO's were ladder braced, and had a spruce bridgeplate. Here's an old bridgeplate out of one, as well as the plastic bridge.

Image
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