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| ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25195 |
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| Author: | Mike R [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Has anyone used anything besides Mahogany for building necks? Also, when laminating neck blanks, has anyone used all dark wood to minimize the visual effect? I'm not crazy about the dark, light, dark laminated necks, but I do prefer a laminated neck for strength. When using laminated neck blanks, how important is it to use quartersawn wood? I have a large stash of mahogany, but it is not quartersawn. It's close, but not quite. I was thinking along the line of using IRW and Mahogany, or even Ebony. Is there anyone out there that has delved into this type of neck construction? Mike R |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Mike- I've laminated several necks with just one species- two thick and one thinner in the middle if necessary. Works and looks fine. You can always add a dark veneer (or black fiber) between the lams if you want a 'line'. Having center lines on the guitar neck and body makes it more critical to get everything 'lined up' perfectly, as it emphasizes any error. I've used walnut and cherry for necks- I think I prefer cherry over the walnut (no pores, so you can use oil finish more easily, if you want) but they both worked. And, of course, maple is a standard neck wood as well. Mahogany and Spanish cedar are nice to carve and light weight, which may account for their popularity. Ebony in the middle of a mahogany or Sp. cedar neck is seen on some classicals, but I don't like the look much. Since I bandsaw the lams before gluing (this is the standard, I think- saves wood), I start with flatsawn wood. It's cheaper and easier to find at the lumberyard, too. Cheers John |
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| Author: | Mike R [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
John, Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'll do one with the same wood. Just cut it and laminate . I planned on building one or two out of walnut, so maybe a walnut neck with back and sides to match. That would look good. I like working with walnut, and have a good supply of it. I have a slab that is big enough for two necks. Yes, the bandsaw is a good idea for keeping the waste down. I also do that. When I was building furniture, the bandsaw was one of my larger investments. I have a 20" Meber. It's Italian. Will handle a 1" blade for re-sawing. I think I will take your advice and start working on the blank tomorrow. Maybe a small strip of ebony in the middle. I have been looking for a source for the wood, but most everything I have found is pricey. Some of them are sized for two necks, but the pictures are not good eough to see the grain of the wood. I would not want to pay over a hundred dollars for a slab for wood that is not good quality. Thanks again for the reply.......Mike R. |
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| Author: | mhammond [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
If you start with a flatsawn 1" thick board, if you use two laminations with a 1/4" center stripe you end up with a neck blank 2 1/4 thick of quartersawn material. You have to watch the weight though.... Mikey |
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| Author: | MRS [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
I like cherry and Spanish cedar as and alternate to mahogany. I also use flatsawn lumber over quartersawn. I don't believe that laminated necks are stronger then standard one piece neck but i believe that laminating adds stability to the neck from twisting and warping...mike |
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| Author: | Mike R [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Mike, I can tell you from an engineering perspective that quartersawn wood is stronger for a neck due to the orientation of the fibers as opposed to the pull of the strings. It won't bend upward as easy as flatsawn wood. When you laminate three pieces of wood together, the wood will not move as easily at the glue joints. That makes it stonger and less succeptable to bend in the direction of the pull of the strings. It probably won't twist as easy either, although I don't know that that would be a problem with a guitar neck. The biggest problem is the neck bending from the tension of the strings. When that happens, the strings raise up, and are harder to press down to the fret. I think flatsawn is fine if you laminate it. I see a lot of it being sold for necks. I just don't care for the stripe down the back of the neck. I think I will use flatsawn, and use the same wood for the whole neck. It will be hard to see the glue joints. And it should be plenty strong enough. Quartersawn wood is very costly, and if you can figure out a way around that, you can save a bunch. Someone also mentioned using Cherry and Walnut for necks. I think I will look into that if they are not to heavy. Thanks for the reply.......Mike R |
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| Author: | MRS [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
I never doubted quartersawn is stronger for necks and more stable then flatsawn. I stated that a laminated neck is not necessary stronger then a non laminated neck. I make laminated necks out of flatsawn lumber. I can manipulate the direction of the grains in the pieces to get a more stable neck. Glue joints do not add strength to wood like some woodworkers think. If i break apart a laminated neck the wood will fail the same as a laminated neck. hopefully at the wood and not the glue joint. A sign of bad lamination job or bad glue. The lamination process offers the chance to alter the direction of the grain in the various pieces of wood to offer stability to prevent things like warpage, cupping and twisting....Mike |
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| Author: | MRS [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
I should have said quartersawn non laminated neck. I have seen no proof that a laminated neck made out of flatsawn lumber as I make them is stronger then a quartesawn neck. The main reason i choose to go with the flatsawn laminated is because it's getting more difficult and expensive to find quartesawn lumber the size for a one piece neck. And by laminating i can get a more stable product then plain flatsawn neck....Mike |
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| Author: | D. Ramsey [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
So are you all just saying using 1/1 flatsawn wood, cutting it approx 3" wide and turning the grain ( so it runs front to back on the guitar) . If so then it's the same as being quartersawn and you all are doing it the same way.  Just trying to understand the methods here. I've never noticed a guitar neck that had the neck grain running side to side on the guitar. Is that common? |
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| Author: | Mike R [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
"I never doubted quartersawn is stronger for necks and more stable then flatsawn. I stated that a laminated neck is not necessary stronger then a non laminated neck" Mike, This was your post. I'm not sure what it is you want to say. Laminated wood is "always" stronger than "non-laminated" wood. That is a fact. They use lamnated beams to hold up buildings. It is also stronger than quartersawn. But, when you laminate three pieces, and turn the wood with the grain facing up, it is now "quartersawn, and laminated" . That would be your strongest combination. That is why you see the stripe on the back of the necks. But there is nothing wrong with a solid, quartersawn neck, if you can afford the wood. But I think it is getting to pricey. But it cost more to quartersaw wood, because of the waste. And I don't condon wasting our natural resources......... So, with that, I am going out to my shop today, and start cutting up some mahogany that I have, and glue it up for neck blanks. Thanks to everyone for their post's. I think Mike might have used the wrong word and didn't quite say what he intended to say. That is why I like this forum. There is a wealth of information available, and it's free................... Mike R. 
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
I have a buddy that has a Moreia, BRW B/S with BRW neck. I don't know if it is QTR sawn or not. From what I understand the reason QTR sawn H. Mahog is such great wood for necks is due to the unique heliotropism that occurs. Trees like flowers grow towards the sun only at much slower rates. Because H. Mahogamy grows close to the equator, it alternates its direction of growth as the sun alternates from one side to the other depending on the season. This decreases its ability to warp. When you make a laminate neck it seems like you are doing something similar. Richard |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
D. Ramsey wrote: So are you all just saying using 1/1 flatsawn wood, cutting it approx 3" wide and turning the grain ( so it runs front to back on the guitar) . If so then it's the same as being quartersawn and you all are doing it the same way. I'm terrible with computer 'art' or I'd draw a picture, but..... One common method (which I first saw in a 1970s GAL DataSheet): Imagine a 'side view' of the neck, including heel and headstock. Make a template of that shape (+ allowance for cutting/gluing errors, jointing, etc). Grab a flat-sawn board about 5-6" thick or so. Mark any defects on the board so that they will be in the waste. Put the template on the board, with the 'fingerboard side' along one edge of the board. Mark around template. Flip template over and end-for end, and mark again, so the second piece 'overlaps' into the vacant areas. You can get two laminations from a board only a few inches longer than the neck. Cheers John |
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| Author: | MRS [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Sorry! When you turn flatsawn lumber on it side so the grain is vertical it still is flatsawn lumber. It does not become quartersawn. During the flatsawing process you will get a few center boards that qualify for quartersawn but the rest will be flatsawn. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
A while ago there was a discussion about Gilbert's T braces on another forum. Someone said they are oh so stiffer than normal braces. I asked how can they be much different from a solid brace of equal height and cross sectional area, and someone else replied that it must be the lamination that gives it more strength. I left it at that, but reading this discussion I thought about doing a test. I picked two braces. Rechecked my deflection measurement on them (for the same footprint and weight, one had a compliance of 2.2 mm and the other 2.6mm), then glued them together, then trimmed the width back to the original weight. Honestly I wasn't holding my breath for some magical stiffness gain, but rather expected the value will fall somewhere in between. It turns out my lamination is only as stiff as the weakest half. And on a second run it went down even lower, to 2.8mm.  I will redo the test soon with wood from 2 different trees, but until then I won't rush make a 20-piece guitar top 
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| Author: | Lillian F-W [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
We need to find another picture. That one keeps surfacing as a good example. Rift sawn and quarter sawn are reversed. |
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| Author: | Mike R [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Thank You |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
My 2 cents worth .... what you see in the pic is a METHOD of cutting a log ... quarter sawing is just that , a method to cut a log, which produces vertical grain lunmber for the majority of the cuts. I have never seen a log that was cut like the one in the picture (except billets of top wood which while being cut occasionally need the face rejointed to perfect vertical grain - ask Shane) .. there is a pic in the old LMI catalog that shows how it is usually done, which is by taking the quarter log section, taking a cut off one face, then flipping it to take a cut of the other face, thus slowly making the piece smaller along its quartered face .. the last cuts are closer to rift, but still not anywhere near flatsawn. So .. it you have a piece of flatsawn that is as close to perfectly flatsawn as can be, when you flip it 90 degrees you get as close to perfecly vertical grain wood as can be .... just because it wasnt cut using a quartersawn method doesnt make it any different than a piece that was. Its not how you get there .... as well, in that thread of a couple months back, the data for various woods shows that its almost always stiffer in flatsawn orientation .. by a noticeable ammount .. there was a link to a data sheet in there ... |
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| Author: | Alan [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Lillian F-W wrote: We need to find another picture. That one keeps surfacing as a good example. Rift sawn and quarter sawn are reversed. Like this one? |
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| Author: | Mike R [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Tony, The wood that I have is flatsawn Mahogany (Honduras). The boards are long and wide. They flat saw them to yield as much wood as they can get from the log, They make more money that way. Not all of it is suitable to use for laminated necks, but a lot of it is. I also have several 3 1/2 by 3 1/2 planks that I had intended to use on a piece of furniture many years ago. A couple of those will also work for a neck or two. I don't know where MRS got the picture, but it does not accurately depict the method a sawyer uses to cut quartersawn lumber. I would guess that the Lutherie suppliers have to beg and plead in order to get quartersawn lumber. Quartersawing is wastefull and you don't usually get very wide pieces. SOme of the tonewood suppliers buy the billets and saw it themselves. But they probably pay dearly for them. I think we will see a decline in the exotic tonewoods in the near future. There is a lot of pressure being put on the industry to stop cutting down the trees in the rain forrests. As little wood as we use, it still has an effect on the ecosystems in the rainforrests. Buy it while you can.................That is why alternative neck woods is a good idea. While Luthiers may only use a small percentage of the woods, the furniture industry is the main user. And a lot of boats are made from mahogany, etc. I have been stockpiling tonewoods for this reason. The Zootman has made a bunch off me in the last year or so. Mike R |
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
This link is from CV tonewoods who looks like the have some really great wood, and I hope they don't mind me using this as an example but they are the only ones I have found that show the end grain. For those who are more familiar than me with recognizing grain patterns exactly how would you qualify this end grain http://www.colonialtonewoods.com/HMblanks2B.jpg Thanks Richard |
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| Author: | David C. Hurd [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Hi All, Based on my research and my part of the discussion in this link: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23849&p=326617#p326617 I suggest it's difficult to make accurate, correct judgements about wood properties based on only one or two samples of a single piece of wood. I believe that flatsawn and quartersawn woods from the same sample have essentially the same stiffness if the dimensions are the same or at least taken into account when doing the actual calculations. Laminating woods can make them more stable, especially if the grain is off quarter and they are laminated in opposing fashion and also if the pieces laminated have less mechanical defects than a whole piece. aloha, |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Thanks David, I have also read a bit of research by the Sailboat guys that properly laminated woods are quite a bit stiffer than Solid woods. This ended up spilling over into tests done on laminated double sides... and they were found to have higher Modulus of Elasticity than their original solid woods did... These guys used double sides because they were stiffer at the same thickness than the original Solid woods were... Back to the OP's question In terms of Neck materials... If you want to see the full range of what "Can" be used.. Look at Electrics... They seem to be made of everything and anything.... All with fairly good results. On acoustics, I have used Mahogany and Cherry so far and like both of them. I also have an Oak neck on the way... I will tell you how it goes, but I am expecting it to sound like a Guitar too... Then on Grain Orientation.... It is nearly impossible to find vertical grain boards of many woods... Cherry is a prime example... The trees are just so small when cut for lumber.... Flat sawn wood is much easier to find, and is usually far more economical. It can be laminated up into necks that seem to stand the test of time.... Go ahead and use it. Thanks John |
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| Author: | joel Thompson [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
We use the term quarter sawn to describe grain oriantation (in this case virtical grain). The term comes from the method of cutting logs whereby the log is pretty much cut into quarters and slices taken off the each face in turn to produce virtical grain. This is done for a number reasons from maximising figure (oak,euro maple etc) to stability (spruce etc). Very rarely will timber be milled in a true quarter sawn manner except in species like spruce and maby oak were quarter sawn wood reaches a significant price premium. Most logs are cut through and through which produces about 1/3 quarter sawn wood, 1/3 rift sawn wood amd 1/3 flat sawn (i just pulled those figures off the top of my head so they are just an estimate on my behalf). Just becouse the center boards that have virtical grain were through and through cut does not mean the wood is less quarter sawn than wood processed in the traditonal manner. In guitar making we like to think of quarter sawn wood as perfectly virtical but the timber trade has different ideas. The excepted grain gradient for quarter sawn lumber in the trade is anywhere between 90 and 45% to the face however the log was cut. When it comes to top wood this is obviously unexceptable as grain direction can have a direct corelation to stiffness. There is s video on the taylor site that explains how spruce is processed very well. the wastage is considered exceptable for the product and off cuts are used for brace stock. however in a comercial setting for other woods this wastage is unexceptable especialy with wood like mahogany etc where other trades need or want flat sawn materiel. http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/fe ... _2_Low.wmx So to answer the debate, if you flip flat sawn over so the grain is now virtical to the face, the wood is now quarter sawn in regards to application. Back to the origonal post i have used Oregon Myrtle to good effect in necks i also like walnut. personaly i am trying move away from mahogany as much as i like to use it and its suits the purpose. some like cherry also but i have stability issues with it in the past. some sonokeling can be quite light and comparable to mahogany in density but the lighter weight stuff tends be poor in color. ovangkol in an option but its a little heavy. of course there is khaya etc as well but again i am suspect of the long term stability of these "mahogany' look a likes. i would like to try koa but have not so cant comment on its suitability. people have used the denser heavier woods like cocobolo and indian rosewood but of course these wood can make the guitar neck heavy (and the guitar heavy in general) so tend to be avoided (allthough they can be an option for electric guitars for the added sustain they can impart). But with the use of laminates carbon fiber and truss rods we have many more options than ever. Convincing the end user that they want anything but mahogany is more of a challenge, J. |
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| Author: | MRS [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Actually the image i posted is correct for rift and quartersawn. The second image is declaring the the middle board on the quartered side can be declared rift sawn and the middle board on the rift side can be declared quartered. Which is true as also is the seventh board on the flat can pass as quartered or rift sawn. http://www.timberwolfllc.com/site/milling.htm |
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| Author: | MRS [ Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ALTERNATIVE NECK WOODS |
Mike R wrote: Tony, The wood that I have is flatsawn Mahogany (Honduras). The boards are long and wide. They flat saw them to yield as much wood as they can get from the log, They make more money that way. Not all of it is suitable to use for laminated necks, but a lot of it is. I also have several 3 1/2 by 3 1/2 planks that I had intended to use on a piece of furniture many years ago. A couple of those will also work for a neck or two. I don't know where MRS got the picture, but it does not accurately depict the method a sawyer uses to cut quartersawn lumber. I would guess that the Lutherie suppliers have to beg and plead in order to get quartersawn lumber. Quartersawing is wastefull and you don't usually get very wide pieces. SOme of the tonewood suppliers buy the billets and saw it themselves. But they probably pay dearly for them. I think we will see a decline in the exotic tonewoods in the near future. There is a lot of pressure being put on the industry to stop cutting down the trees in the rain forrests. As little wood as we use, it still has an effect on the ecosystems in the rainforrests. Buy it while you can.................That is why alternative neck woods is a good idea. While Luthiers may only use a small percentage of the woods, the furniture industry is the main user. And a lot of boats are made from mahogany, etc. I have been stockpiling tonewoods for this reason. The Zootman has made a bunch off me in the last year or so. Mike R Actually i don't believe anyone here thinks they actually slice a log up as the picture show except maybe you. That would be plain stupid. What the pic shows is the description of rift. quarter and flatsawn. Thats all it is. A description. When they saw a log up most chose to do a flatsawn method to obtain the most usable lumber. If they chose to do quartersawn they would first cut the log into 4 pie shaped pieces then pass the qurtered pieces through the saw getting qurtersawn. There is a lot more waste involved so it is not a common thing. If you look at the diagram you can see how the middle of the log boards of flatsawn can pass for rift or quarted. This is where the majority of quartered wood comes from. technically rift sawn produces lumber with straighter grain the quartered but is much harder method to cut. This is why many by quartered billets and split them to get guitar tops and braces. They want the most straight grain they can get. This can also explain the higher prices because of the rarity of the cut and the difficulty obtaining it...Mike http://www.timberwolfllc.com/site/milling.htm |
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