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So I finally have some cash to buy wood for my first build. Being my first build, I've never really had to look at different wood grades and I'd like to know what would best suit my needs here. I just need some solid stable wood, nothing fancy I have no need for any flame or silking or bearclaw and I'd like it to have a good uniform color. This applies for both my top and back and sides. I know some retailers would sell a 2A for what others would call a 3A, so I'm just looking for some generalizations here. Thanks guys.

I'm in a similar situation right now. I was always shocked at the prices of wood. Tops are actually cheap. I just bought a bear claw top from a member for $25. LMI and Blues creek have one type of mahogony or another for about $45. Prima Vera from LMI is $40(none in stock for a few more days maybe). Cheapest set I have found outside of ebay. If you don't know alot about wood, ebay will be hit or miss. Auctions seem to end pretty low, but if not from a reputable supplier, maybe not worth even a few dollars. I think a B+S set and a top will end up being a small part of the cost of a finished instrument. Good luck and Merry Christmas

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From my opinion... it's always a good investement to put a 20, 30, 40$ more to get a higher grade... What is it, 40$ on a complete guitar? And sometime it makes a nice difference on your guitar's look... And also, it's not like you're going to do hundreds of guitars this year... My 2 cents

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

I do agree, but $40 saved is a second chance at something that doesn't go right.

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

I'm on the boat with Rob on this one. I have no problem spending some extra $$$ on nicer wood, I would just much rather mess up on a top that only cost me $xx as opposed to $xxx.

i don't think $xxx is permitted on this forum.
I am going to mess something up for sure. If I mess up bending a $40 set, I am not going to have to wait till next Christmas to try again. The first one is not going to be perfect(maybe not even good). There are so many aspects of this project I have no experience with. I just want to complete one, and gain some confidence. The next one I will probably put the extra $ on a better set. I'm not saying I am going to settle for less with my workmanship, i just have some wiggle room.

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

See that nail over there Rob? You just smacked it straight in the head. Good luck with that, and Happy Holidays to boot!

For starting out... use the lowest "Grade" stuff you can get your hands on. One huge mistake is to assume the Guitar you get is the sum of the Wood species -- that an Adi Red Spruce Topped Brazilian Rosewood Bird house with Strings on it would somehow make Beautiful Music... It won't!

Grades mostly deal with the Visual looks of a piece, not the potential it may have in a Guitar.... You wouldn't believe how good a #3 Low B Grade Sitka top can sound on an instrument.... Sure, the grain is wide and uneven and it has dark orange stripeys and maybe a swirl or two... but it makes a fine guitar (That has a little "Character.")

Then for Backs and Sides... The 1st thing you need is to be able to Build it... and for a Beginner... That means wood that is easy to work and easy to Bend and that you aren't allergic to.... My 1st choice in this regard is plain, boring, straight grained, quartersawn North American Hardwoods -- Soft Maple, Cherry, and Walnut are amazingly easy to work and bend like a dream. They aren't too porous, which makes them easy to finish... and they do make a fine sounding guitar.

Plain, straight grain Mahogany is also amazingly easy to work, but not as cooperative to bending as North American Hardwoods (Which you can practically tie in knots when hot and wet..) .... But.. it's cheap, easy to find, and it works.

If you gotta have Rosewood on that 1st build.. Go with Student grade EIR. It is very cooperative, fairly cheap, and sounds pretty good too.

Buy a couple $7.00 tops and some cheap Maple/Cherry/Walnut/Mahogany/EIR practice backs/sides. Start your practice Jointing sessions with the Worst top set of the bunch... because you will ruin that 1st top trying to get that joint just right.. and if you don't ruin it then... there are many subsequent steps which will give you ample opportunity (Like routing the Rosette..) If it makes it all the way thru unscathed -- it was Meant for that Guitar!

Thanks

John

In my opinion, the time you will invest is such a much larger part of the overall picture that you might as well spend a few dollars. If you are excited about the prospects of the finished product it will add so much to the journey, so much to the experience, that the cost is easily justified. Its hard to get excited about something that is not what you REALLY wanted.

Just my two cents.............. Mikey

P.S. Have fun and good luck

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www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

When talking about Grading... the standards are usually Visual... so asking for very uniform looking woods can inadvertently push you up into the higher grade woods.

For tops... Higher grade = lighter color, Uniform color, uniform grain lines, straight grain lines, tighter grain lines.... A 3A top is more likely to be very "Uniform" looking than a 1A top.... but it will also be far more expensive.

Figured back and sides woods are graded more like hardwood lumber... The more uniformly wild the grain and the more rich the colors, the higher the grade....

Straight quartersawn back and sides wood are sometimes graded more like tops.. the more perfect the quartersawing, the more uniform the grain... the higher the grade.

So... Here is the question you gotta answer...... If you are looking for a "Deal" on Top wood... Would you rather have a top downgraded for Looks (Streaks or uneven grain) or one downgraded for something that may effect physical properties (Lots of runout or cut way off quarter.)

But... If you aren't looking for Cheap wood, but want very uniform looking wood... Call up LMI or Allied and tell them what you want.

Thanks

John

Well Dan,

first, I like your attitude and approach ...so

if you have the means to band saw your top, backs and ribs(sides) then go to the lumber yard and by a 2" x 8" x 8' stick of SPF (spruce pine fir...it really honestly just don't matter) for like $10 if that....rip it up and you gonna have a whole bunch of tops, bracing and curffing all out a that one stick.

While there pick up a board of walnut or cherry, oh ya and a bottle of white wood glue.

go home, rip it all up into backs and sides and tops and guess what....you just spent less than $50.

you probably end up with enough wood to do 2 or 3 builds.

Now other than beg borrowing or stealing (which me don't recommend) you ain't gonna get out any cheaper.

And if your real good at choosing your 2 boards, you will actually end up with some decent and me do mean decent wood. Its all in taking the time to carefully select the wood.

Now if you can't resaw then listen to the words truckjohn layed down on you.
Check with the various OFL sponsors who sell sets... just tell them like it is for you and that you only wanna spend x amt of $ and no more and believe it ... they will work with you to get you to, and through that first build.

So once you gotts your wood and working away...keep us posted as to how its goin down.


blessings
the
Padma

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Also, if you want, I know StewMac are selling ''practice wood''... It's a really cheap wood to practise bending before doing it on the real stuff. I don't remember the price of it, exactly, but it should be around 15$ for a set of side... I think that could be a good move to bend one or two pratice side sets... Again, just my two cents


Francis

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Soft Maple is mentioned ? Doesnt that tend to split awfully easy ?

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If you are worried about bending as I was, contact some of the suppliers listed here or check Ebay for orphaned sides, I bought a bunch from a guy on ebay when I wanted to bend my 1st cutaway and was able to get the bending skills down before I bent the actual sides. As for wood get something you like the looks of and will enjoy having a guitar built with even if it is more money, but stick with the easier to bend woods as suggested in the previous posts and get quarter cut it is easier to work with.

I am helping a friend build a Honduran Mahogany OM right now, he has a back and side set he got for around $50 but needed thicknessing. It is a great looking set but a little boring looking to my eye but will make great sounding guitar.

Fred

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Dan-
Truckjohn has some excellent points in his posts. I'm of a 'like mind'.

If you want to spend your time on a first build (rather than wood processing), I'd recommend getting a 'kit'. By this I mean a box of parts from one supplier. This would be the cheapest way to get a reliable selection of wood which will produce a 'mainstream-looking' guitar. Buying from one source helps to minimize the shipping costs.
That's what I did in '75- got a box of stuff from Bill Lewis. It was a bit intimidating to look at that rough-sawn lumber in the cardboard box, but I did hand-build a guitar with it, and the guitar is still being played by one of my nephews.

I've looked at a lot of 'lumberyard' wood and haven't found much quarter-sawn guitar top wood over the years. When I've seen good stuff it was at 'upscale' yards with prices to match, and often with a 'buy the whole board' requirement.

Cheers
John

some good advice but i would add few points.
low grade tops can make lovely sounding guitars and as has been mentioned once you get into the higher grades you paying pretty much for looks.
you can get some excellent sounding low grade tops.
however once you get below AA you start getting tops that are running off quarter and have seriose run out.
you want to avoid these as it can dramaticaly reduce the stiffness of the top even if its off by a couple of degrees and run out can cause structeral integraty problems.
i would ask for a top that has couler banding and wider grain on the outer edge but is perfectly quarter sawn.
you may get a nice top that has large knot out side the template or pitch pocket.
if you go one of these make sure that any flames from the knot are on the upper bout (as they are basicaly very bad localised run out) and any pitch pockets can be cut out somehow when cutting out the shape of the guitar (i.e. inside the soundhole)
you should get good medulary silking with even a low grade quarter sawn top as silking is related to the medulary rays witch cross the radial serfice of the board.
that said differnt borads can have varying degrees of the size and depth of the rays but all woods should have medulary rays on the radial (quarter sawn) face whatever the species.
with the back and sides you can also get a good set from the low grades.
try to make sure your sides are quarter sawn as they can cause trouble with buckling and bowing etc if they are flat sawn which you dont want to deal with on your first guitar.
but the back does not have to be qaurter sawn but it will help if at least the jointing edge is quarter sawn running of to flat sawn on the outer edge for stability reasons (you will also get abetter book match this way).

i would advise a plain set of european maple or black walnut for a starter set they are botha pleasuer to work with and can make great sounding guitars..
you should be able to pick up an A grade set for $30 that will be suitable i would not advise going for any thing cheaper than that.
cherry is also a good option but its not as stable as walnut.
you could also try ovangkol or african mahogany, madinter in spain do sets pretty cheap that are quarter sawn and easy to work.
they also do A grade indian rosewood which is supurb for a first guitar for about €25 (in fact i usualy suggest indian rosewood to beginers for ease of use to bend and work)

woods to avoid would be paduak (can be tricky to bend on your first try) and bubinga for the same reason ( italso can tear out quite badly) even though these can be picked up very cheap.
you have a good attitude in regards to not jumping in at the deep end (a common problem for beginers) so we dont need to go into the more expensive woods.

you need to find a balance of using wood that is suitable but not breaking the bank.
however if you follow the advice given you should be able to get your wood $45-50 or so.

try not to compromise with the neck rift sawn wood is bad for necks and you dont want run out or pin knots.
however you should be able to pick up a nice quarter sawn piece of black walnut form a regular timber merchant over there for just a few dollers and that should work just fine.
just make sure its a clean peice of wood with streight grain no knots and its quarter sawn.
you can use lumber yard spruce for your braces if your not worried about run out etc but on your first one its probably worth giving someone like shane at high mountain a bell for some brace stock.
he may well be able to sort you out a suitable top also.
personaly i would advise against a trip to a lumber yard for back and sides etc till you gain a little more knowlege about wood selection etc.
selecting suitable wood at timber yards can be a tricky business (but you can find some real gems if you know what to look for) at the best of times and the species tend to be mixed in.
you dont want to end up a fast grown finnish pine top it will probably not be suitable (many pine and spruce trees grow ith a twist whitch means its unsuitable guitar grade logs are free of twist and are then split to avoid run out, lumber yard spruce isfelled and cut through and through which means it can have awfull run out which could cause an extream faliure when you string up).

you can use off cuts from your back for head veneer etc and some blocks of black walnut or maple from the place you get you neck for your top and tail blocks.
you will need to buy allmost every thing else though.
you will need kerfing binding etc etc and i would advice stew mac or lmi for this stuff.
its not worth the pain of trying to do this yourself on your first one and stew mac etc have quality items that will wrk for what yo need.

so to sum up i would go for an A grade top (check out kootnay on ebay for reasonble engleman very cheap) make sure its as close to quarter sawn as poss,
A grade wallnut,cherry or plain maple back and sides(try notable tonewoods for A grade walnut for $40 i have had great stuff from him in the past) with quarter sawn sides

The idea about getting some practice sides is a good one as its easy to burn your first set whilst bending.
try the supplier of where ever you get your back and sides form for orphans (allthough they can be pricy as suppliers cut them into other components etc).

god luck and feel free to pm me if you need any help,

Joel.

Nope, not if you follow standard wood bending practices for North American hardwoods... which are definately different than what you do for some of the South American and African hardwoods...

Hot pipe bending, Hot blanket bending, and even boiling in hot distilled water works great.... The trick with most Usual Suspect North American hardwoods (Cherry, Maple, Oak, Beech, Ash, Elm, Walnut, Hickory, etc.) is Very wet + Hot. I tried bending them dry and barely wet... and it was almost impossible.... but soak them down and heat them up good and they flop onto the forms.

On the splitty-ness.... You have to exercise care with any thin woods you work with -- as splitting it down the grain lines is always a possibility... but this is just as true with our Spruce and Cedar soundboards... I don't consider Maple splitty at all in the sense of BRW or Ziricote..

It is true that Quilted and very highly figured Curly wood is more of a challenge -- as it wants to corrugate along the grain lines... but straight grained, quartersawn boring plain wood is a woodworker's friend.

Thanks

John

i know you were asking about wood grading, and you have received some advice on that, but i just want to second the idea of starting with a kit. FWIW, i just built a super cheap kit on the LMI website just for giggles. nothing fancy, no purfling, most all low grade stuff, 217 dollars shipped to your front door. thats everything you need to put a guitar together. cant beat that IMO.

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Where are all of you guys getting this cheap walnut?!?

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

Wood grading is so subjective and ebay is so hit or miss. Buy from reputable Don't gand I would suggest to work with AA grade. This is a decent grade that is stable and will help you suceed and you won't have any stability issues.
Top grades you want at least a good A or AA . You should be able to get a set of wood top , side and back for about $70. don't get the lowest grade but do plan on not making the best guitar your first time out. If you contact me I am get you a good set up and if you need it bent I can help you out.
At this point you have much to learn but it take the first step for travel into this hobby and you will get lots of advice and opinions here

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
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You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

following along todd's line, i'm also in the AA camp. best bang for the buck. your only sacrifice is going to be a bit of striping or knot shadow in the top - and if you don't mind your wood looking like wood, it's no sacrifice at all.

for my first guitar i was able to score an engleman top that had been aging for 10 years in a local builders shop. turns out that the top had a bit of knot shadow and there was no way he could use it on a guitar that was going to be sold for 6k. so i got it and built a guitar that sounds amazing. (not beautiful by any stretch, but the sound is fantastic). being a novice i assumed that this guy sold me a magical piece of wood.

because he didn't have any more wood that he was willing to part with, for my second guitar i had to go to the conventional sources and ended up with an AA from allied. there was lots of variation in color and lines per inch, but the guitar sounded fantastic. my buddy is still really pleased with it.

beginners luck ran out and my #3 and #5 didn't sound nearly as good. thank goodness i'm back on track with the last 4. but my experience with the first two tops i used was my 'proof' that the money one spends on the top (within reason) does not really affect the outcome of the sound.

phil

Just as a reference point... This is a #3 B grade Sitka top. It lives on my Thrift Store Retop-Esteban project.
I paid $7.00 for this top (This isn't an Ebay special.)



Now, buying them this way is hit-or-miss.... This top is wide grained and colorful...
I bought 5 tops. This was the widest grain and least dense.
2 others are fine grained and very colorful, with a little knot shadow, but very stiff and well quartersawn.
The last 2 are very even and fairly tight grained, but way too far off-quarter... you can almost roll them up cross-grain!

Still... 3 good tops for $35.00 = 11.66 each is pretty cheap.

Thanks

John

I can't help but disagree with you guys.. I realize you might ruin the odd set but if your putting the amount of time and energy into a guitar that you do whats another 100 bucks? I've heard from several people the timeline for a 1 off amateur build is 100+ hours (I know some of you can bang off half a dozen in that time but if you're that good you're not asking about tonewood grading either)

And if you want to practice bending, practice. Most vendors sell practice sides or go slice up some 2x6s and practice until your ready to attack your guitar.

I'm not saying go out and use Master Grade BRW and Adirondack tops every build but after putting that amount of effort into it do you really want be thinking "I wish I used a nicer set of ..."

Gotta find a balance.. If your guitar sounds amazing and looks like it was built from scrap I hope you enjoy playing it because you'll have a pretty hard time selling it.

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I'll side with Truckjohn on this one. My first spruce-topped classical was built with a top that I pulled out of a batch of 35 basically reject-grade tops that I bought from Darren Hippner. I probably paid 7 dollars for the top, after figuring out how many of the 35 could actually get used on real guitars. Steve Kinnaird commented here on how nice the silking looked on that top.

I love to resaw, and I love to go to the hardwood supplier to try and find the boards that are worth resawing - and believe me, the place I go is on the lookout for guitar sets themselves. I've processed some English Sycamore (basically the U.K.'s most common Acer species) with very nice flame that they had left for furniture work, and have one guitar in the works now from that and probably another 8 sets stashed. I think the hunt for somewhat-bargain wood is one of my favorite parts of the process, right up there with neck carving.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

In the end, you gotta decide what floats your boat....
If you just aren't turned on by building with Cheap/plain/common wood... Don't.
If you believe that you will build a better guitar out of higher grade wood... You will... So use it.
It's your money and Your hobby... in the end, you are the only one who can decide what is interesting and fun and challenging for you....

Myself.... I am very new to this, but kinda a Contrarian... In my mind, "Tonewood" is what you end up with... not what you start with... I really believe one can build a fine guitar out of whatever you happen to have at hand.... So far, I have ended up with a Retopped Esteban, and Oak guitar and a Cherry guitar.... I am pretty happy with all of them.

Many people don't feel the same way I do, though... If you don't believe you can build a good guitar out of something... You won't be able to!

Also... That's not to say I don't value those guitars made of Beautiful, Expensive, and Rare wood..... I certainly do... I am just not there yet myself.

Thanks

John