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table saw - granite vs steel
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Author:  Josh H [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  table saw - granite vs steel
I'm in the market for a table saw and wanted to get some opinions. I've built for 6 years without a table saw, due to having a small shop. I'm now in a bigger shop and have lots of room for a saw. My main question is granite or steel top. I've been reading a bunch of reviews and there are advantages to both. I was just wondering if there was any opinions about which one is a better choice for the guitar builder. I'm looking for a saw that will handle guitar building tasks, but it also big enough to handle the occasional larger job (building a piece of furniture).

Two of the saws I'm considering are..,

Ridged, with Granite top - A friend just bought one. Seems like a great saw for the money. From reviews I have read it seems like the fence needs to be tweaked a bit but once that is done it works great.
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stor ... PartNumber

General, steel top - I've looked at these in the past and haven't heard anything bad.
http://www.general.ca/site_general/g_pr ... 5_185.html

Any thoughts or opinions are appreciated.

Josh
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Granite over cast Iron the advantage is really just the anti corrosion aspect. I have the Ridgid except with a cast Iron table. it is a good machine but I wished I had a tad more power. but for $500 with cast Iron and 700 with granite it is not bad.

in either case it all boils down to care to prevent corrosion vs premium price for granite.
Author:  Jamie_M [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
My vote is for the General with the steel top. I guess I'm partial since I have a General cabinet saw. I've found there are not that many guitar making applications for a table saw (not saying none), so if I were you, I'd look at what other applications you're going to be using it for. A wise move is to check consumer reports on how flat the tables are...and how good the fence is. Two things that will save time and frustration in the future.

Oh, and I live in Nova Scotia where it seems everything rusts, but I've had nary a mark on my saw. I just don't put anything wet (duh!) on it, and all seems good.
Author:  the Padma [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Todd Stock wrote:
If you want to go with a General, move up to at least a hybrid - the 50-220C M1. That said, it's almost identical to the Woodtek 148-271, which is about $900 delivered versus $1100 for the General.



Well there are cars and there are good cars and then there are simply the best...so it is with table saws.

$900 for a Woodtek ain't bad at all.

Then there is the General.
The fit and finish is A1 first class on Generals
I 'member back as a young man phoning Drummondville Quebec asking about about a jointer. The reply was..."we are casting the beds next month, so call back in about a year and a half" See unlike many of the current manufactures, General use to let there castings sit outside for a full year before doing the final surface milling ...just to make sure. Don't know if they do that or not any more. But one thing is for sure...they still build them like they use to.

BLessings
the
padma
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Both look like they would be good saws.
'General International' is the brand name for General's offshore-made tools, so possibly not in the same league as the older General tools which built the company reputation.
A 'cabinet' style saw (aka Unisaw knockoff) rather than a 'contractor' saw would be my preference if I had an excuse to replace my saw.
Much easier to organize dust collection and integrate with infeed and outfeed tables.
I've found rust to be a problem only when using an unheated shop space (barn) in Ontario. In a heated shop it won't be a problem; even in my unheated garage 1 km from salt water the iron saw table is fine.
One advantage (for me) of the iron table is that if I ever spilled something (glue, paint, etc) on the iron, I could sand it off without worry. (Not that spills or overspray ever happen, mind..... ;) )
For guitar-sized work, I find that my old 8" Beaver with a thin kerf blade is used most of the time, rather than the 10" contractor saw.

Cheers
John
Author:  wbergman [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
I think granite vs. steel is the last concern in getting something suited for your tasks.
Author:  MRS [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
I would go with iron. It can be leveled probably easier then the granite in the future if need be at machine shop. Granite also can crack( the home depot display model had 2 cracks in it at my local store) and it needs to be sealed every so often since it porous. I have also noticed that the miter saw slot was rough almost abrasives feeling. I also didn't like the two piece fence rails that are connected with what looks like a plastic coupler. The fence rails are two of the most important parts to a table saws accuracy. Just some things to think about...Mike
Author:  Josh H [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Hey Guy,

Thanks for the input. I'll certainly keep these things in mind as I look over the next few weeks. Once the holidays are over I'm going to make the rounds to a few tool places that often have quality used stuff.

If money wasn't a factor I'd get a nice new cabinet saw. However money is going to play a big part in what saw I end up with.

Thanks again and Merry Christmas, I'm out of the shop till next week.

Josh
Author:  sanaka [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
I saw the granite top Rigid at the Home Despot and thought it was just the coolest thing in there. It's a constant battle to keep your iron rust free here in the tropics. Also, granite plates are what they use for flat reference in machine shops and labs. If those saw tops are good and flat, then you've got such a useful reference surface. All that said, I agree the saw mechanism itself is the paramount thing to consider, plus it's hard to say how accurate the Rigid saw tops are. If Grizzly sold a granite replacement top for my 1023, I'd probably be all over it. :)

Peace,
Sanaka
Author:  GregG [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
I would buy one with cast iron/steel, eventually the granite is going to chip or crack. I would also do everything in my power to purchase the "most" saw you can today, you won't regret it.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
It's a bit more money ($900Cdn) but you might throw this one into your shopping list as well...another offshore saw.
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT104
Author:  Mike R [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Josh,
I have a Powermatic I bought in the 80's, with a cast iron table that is very flat and true. Never a problem. But I was building furniture in those days. A table saw is not a necessity for building guitars, but it is great to have.
Granite will crack. That is what scares me. But a nice slab of granite is nice to have in the shop for sanding the edges of top plates and back plates, ect. I would stick to cast iron. It can be ground if it ever causes a problem. There are ways to fight corrosion too. I use mine all the time, for stuff unrelated to building guitars. Or, for jigs, etc. Look for a used saw. You can save lots of money. They usually go for half of the retail price used. Some of the portable saws on the market are nice. They don't have the power, but do a pretty good job. I have used the Ridgid portable, and it worked pretty well. BUt if you are planning on sawing 12/4 or 16/4 lumber, get a 3 HP or bigger.
Mike R.
Author:  Josh H [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Hey guys, Thanks again for the advice

John, I've looked at some of the Busybee stuff in the past but I've always been a bit unsure about their tools. I've heard that some of them are a good buy and others are not worth the time. If anyone has a busy bee saw and wants to comment I'd be interested...

While the General International tools are made overseas the quality (from what I have observed) is a step above most other tools made overseas. That is also reflected in the price which also tends to be a bit higher. I think the General saw I listed at the start of this thread is somewhere around $1000 (at least it was when I looked at it a year ago). When I was looking at it the salesman said the fence alone would sells for $300.

Mike, I'll defiantly see if I can pick up something used. I've built without a TS since I started 6 years ago. Right now I'm really trying to increase production and I know a saw would really help. For one thing I'm getting real tired of slotting fretboards by hand. The tables saw will also help with building fanfret guitars which I hope to start building this year.

Josh
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: table saw - granite vs steel
Josh H wrote:
If anyone has a busy bee saw and wants to comment I'd be interested...


Josh-
I've had a few BusyBee tools over the years, and - as you say- the quality has been uneven. My late father also had some BusyBee tools which I used from time to time.
Surprisingly, there were no motor problems with any of them, which was a flaw with early Taiwan tools from some factories.
I've got a BB contractors saw now- it works fine (it was cheap) but I wouldn't recommend it. I'd replace it if I had the cash.
Had a BB 16" bandsaw which I didn't like- poorly thought-out adjustments, etc. (Windfall led to a Laguna replacement- whee!)
BB sanders just keep on going.
My Dad's BB knockoff of the Unisaw seems like a good tool- but it is an older model from the 80s.
I ran a few miles of lumber through a BB 15" planer in the 90s and it is still going- again in my late Dad's shop.

Another brand that seems to be a 'cut above' is SteelCity, so you could check on them as well, if you haven't done so already.

Trying to find something used - as others have recommended- would be the route I'd follow. For fingerboards an older 8" Beaver/General would be my choice, as I mentioned. You can find them used, and if you take off the extension tables they are compact. For fingerboards and work with thin stock, I prefer to be able to 'get close' (eyes, not hands).
Edit:Josh- I just noticed you have been at Sergei's as well, so you know all the following! :oops:
I took a course with Sergei deJonge a few years ago, and the only tablesaw around was an older 8". Along with the drill press and a 14" (General) bandsaw that was the stationary power tool complement in the main part of the shop, which was used by 5 pro builders + 4 students when I was there . (Thickness sander, jointer, belt sanders, and a couple more bandsaws were a few steps away).

Cheers
John
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