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Tops and runout - terminal?
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Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Tops and runout - terminal?
So - being a bit overenthusiastic I recently purchsed some Adirondack tops at a low price that looked pretty good in all aspects except one - clear runout on the upper bout, resulting in that "fuzzy", figured appearance. Some just outside the template, but a bit running over to the top, parallel with where the sound hole will be.

I know that this is not ideal. My question for the veterans here is, how significant is this, in terms of tone, stability of the top long term etc. The tops seem quite stiff otherwise, well quartered, and have a nice ring.

Realize that this is one of those "I'd have to see it" questions - I'm just trying to get a relative perspective on whether I have useable tops or kindling. :oops: Thanks.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
we need pictures. Is the top stiff?
Author:  Tom West [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
Corky: Lots of excellent guitars have been made with runout and are still being made to this day.Sounds like you are dealing with a limited amount that just enters the pattern...?At this time Red Spruce of top quality is becoming harder to acquire. Generally some compromises have to be made especially on the cosmetic side of things.My feelings are that there should be two grading criteria,one for tone and one for looks.That aside if all other aspects of these tops are ok I think you should go ahead and build.If you have any doubts just cobble together a plain jane guitar to give your self a feel for the true quality of the wood.Certainly bad runout is one of the things we try to stay from and rightly so.No doubt lots of folks will wade in on this one. Good Luck. Tom.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
I'd use them also !
Just make sure the runout is not under the bridge area.
You want to see runout-look at allot of the Euro Spruce guitars .

Mike
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
All -

Thanks for the replies. Yes, John, they're quite stiff. Here are a couple of pictures of the worst of them (the runout on this set goes through the top parallel with the soundhole). On the others it's less pronounced.
Attachment:
runout1.JPG


Thanks!
Author:  woody b [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
You can't use that top. Send it to me and I'll.....dispose of it [:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:]
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
Corky,
Although your issue is indeed a form of runout it is typically referred to as knot shadow as it is cause by the grain adjacent to a limb of the tree being bent to accommodate the branch. Runout is typically referred to a piece that is either sawn poorly or processed from a tree that has twist. It is evidence by a two tone colour in the finished top. Look at this link of Dave Matthews Taylor Guitar, that is a top with runout. Soooo, good enough for Dave can't be too bad for most!
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123076

Shane
Author:  David Newton [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
I used a top with almost that same configuration, you'll see a lot of Red like that, knot shadow in the waist area.

It actually had a neat "glow" under finish where the grain turned.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
I've seen no proof runout detracts tonally, but it is inferior structurally. It is a problem mainly under the bridge, where in case of joint failure the bridge can rip a good chunk out of the top. The difference can be seen easily by cutting a long and thin brace with say 30 degrees runout and then splitting a perfect alignment one from the same log. It takes obviously more force and bending to rip the runout free brace.

I would use that top as I don't mind knot waves in the upper bout, but maybe I be more gentle fretting over it.
Author:  Corky Long [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
Thanks all -for the help, and for the education on runout vs. know shadow.
Glad I've got some usable tops, and not kindling....I'm looking forward to using them! The one I posted actually has a pleasing pinkish blush to it in places. Should make a very nice guitar.
Author:  woody b [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tops and runout - terminal?
The term "knot shadow" makes sense to me. I'll always called it "localized runout" Aren't both terms correct?
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