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| Newbie with constant dilema over tools... http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16156 |
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| Author: | SkyHigh [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
Hi Guys! Newbie to tools and building here. I hope I'm not alone in this situation and others who are in similar situation can benefit from replies you experienced folks can give on this post. So, When I shop for drill bits, measuring tools, and other small tools not really talked about on the forum, I notice there are many choices and prices. Yesterday I went to home depot and price for drill bit sets range from $20-$100 and combination squares on Amazon.com runs $15-$70. I looked at Empire brand combination square at Home Depot. They have "Good, Better, and Pro" to choose from. How do I know if I need to invest here and go for the "Pro" or is better good enough for newbie??? Is it simply what I can afford? or is this area where I want to invest? I have similar question with drill bits. They have titanium, black oxide, and other words to describe the bits. With having slim to zero wood working experience, do I invest here or treat some of these terms as marketing strategy and go for the least $ within reputable brand??? Thanks, David |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
Get your self a nice set of brad point bits and use them ONLY for wood. They will last forever. I got a dewalt set that is almost 10 years old and still going strong. They are only used for wood and for guitars. Get a nice set of digital calipers, Stewmac and LMI both have them, they make quick and easy work of measuring. A good straight edge (don't skimp here) and a good rule, I like the Ibex rule that Stewmac had, not sure if they still sell it. I think regarding tools, you should always buy what you can afford. |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
SkyHigh, Boy do I have information for you. I haven't even built 1 guitar yet and can help. I am a furniture maker...but one of those ultra ultra picky types...and that is going to help me immensely in guitar building. I have run the gamut on all types of tools and tool quality. Guess what.... ALL SQUARES AREN'T SQUARE. When it comes to measuring tools...my standard is this. If the literature of the tool does not reveal what the tolerance is.....don't buy it. I have purchased tape measures and steel rules and discovered the marking on them are NOT WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE. Of course if you use JUST ONE thing on all measuring needs it won't matter...but that certainly will not be the case in guitar making...and was certainly not the case in furniture making. You can find a set of squares at your local woodcraft for not much money...GROZ is the brand and the tolerance is .00063 when made. That'll do. I have asked this question on this forum...but my experience tells me that when looking at drill bits....speed and technique matter more than the tip profile. Don't buy a real cheap set though because not all drill bits are straight. Hope this helps.... |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
One other thing.........these tools you are talking about...they will be used to do the setups on your power tools (band saw, table saw, etc). If your measuring and setup tools are not up to par....your machines won't be once you 'set them up'. |
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| Author: | Mitch Cain [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
In any trade where tools are used, they should be considered an investment - something that will last a long time. And believe me, you get what you pay for. I get this a lot from my students - "I'm not good enough to use the Lie-Nielsen hand plane, so I'll buy the $25 one from home depot instead." - The truth of the matter is, if you aren't experienced in sharpening, or tuning up the plane, then you aren't good enough NOT to use the Lie-Nielsen... As a very general rule, the more a tool costs, the higher the quality. Starrett squares and measuring tools, in general, are more accurate than, say Stanley. Lie-Nielsen over Groz, and you will never pry my Festool saw, sanders, routers from my hands over some other brands. Be prepared to invest in tools that will last a long time. The worst thing in the world is to watch someone struggle with a set of cheapo tools and make their project suffer in the end. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
Even good quality staight edges, calipers and squares are inexpensive compared to their importance for the kind of work we do. Equally important; take good care of them! Don't leave a your layout tools buried in pile with other tools and debris on the bench, sooner or later they'll get knocked, dropped or otherwise abused and become useless. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
A couple of things I use more than almost anything are a couple of Machinists Squares. One 3" and one 6". I use the 3" on most things. If you have a couple of those, you can check other squares from them too. Also, if you want a combination square or a really good rule/straightedge, Starrett(mentioned before) or Brown & Sharpe are usually accurate - not cheap, but accurate, and fall within machinists tolerances for accuracy. |
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| Author: | Zach Ehley [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
Has anyone ever said "I wish I would have got the cheap one". |
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| Author: | Rich Schnee [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
A 12” Starrett combination square is a must have. Don’t buy anything else but Starrett. Get a good dial caliper. Digitals are good but I prefer the dial with anti backlash. It’s a personal thing. Stewmac or LMI straight edges. Don’t skimp on your layout tools. I have a motto…The inconvenience of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain has been forgotten. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
I would argue that Brown and Sharpe has been a machinists standard for over a hundred years, and is at least on par with Starrett in measuring tools, calipers, and micrometers. Not as commercially available nor as highly marketed as Starrett, but if you buy from purveyors to the machinists trade, you'll find them represented. There are many other places, but Here is a place that carries both, among other fine measuring and marking tools for woodworking. Sorry, that sounds argumentative, but a Brown and Sharpe Combination Square is as good as a Starrett. The point is don't skimp on tools of this kind, where accuracy is critical. Even then check them for accuracy by snugging the square up to an edge, draw a line, flip the square over on the same edge. Make sure it follows the line exactly. If not, take it back - nobody is perfect. |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
Mitch Cain wrote: I get this a lot from my students - "I'm not good enough to use the Lie-Nielsen hand plane, so I'll buy the $25 one from home depot instead." - The truth of the matter is, if you aren't experienced in sharpening, or tuning up the plane, then you aren't good enough NOT to use the Lie-Nielsen.... Amen to that - I got Lie Nielsen planes for both the reason you mentioned and also just for having an hierloom quality tool to treasure,,, There are certain tools you can do without getting the absolute top notch variety of.. but something that you want to use for years to come try and go for the better quality if you can - it takes longer to tool up (trust me I know) but youll be happier in the end,,, Cheers and good luck! Charliewood |
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| Author: | PaulB [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
Cheap tools will end up costing you more in ruined materials and having to replace the cheap tools with good ones. I once bought a set of cheap, made in China, brad point bits. The 3/16" bit BENT IN HALF the first time I used it. Looked like spaghetti ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") . Don't know what it was made from, mild steel would be my guess. I was so disgusted I threw out the rest of the set and bought a better quailty set. Cheap tools are money down the drain.
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| Author: | Rich Schnee [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
WaddyT wrote: I would argue that Brown and Sharpe has been a machinists standard for over a hundred years, and is at least on par with Starrett in measuring tools, calipers, and micrometers. Not as commercially available nor as highly marketed as Starrett, but if you buy from purveyors to the machinists trade, you'll find them represented. There are many other places, but Here is a place that carries both, among other fine measuring and marking tools for woodworking. Sorry, that sounds argumentative, but a Brown and Sharpe Combination Square is as good as a Starrett. The point is don't skimp on tools of this kind, where accuracy is critical. Even then check them for accuracy by snugging the square up to an edge, draw a line, flip the square over on the same edge. Make sure it follows the line exactly. If not, take it back - nobody is perfect. Waddy, you are absolutely correct. Brown and Sharpe is every bit as good as Starrett. I have both in my arsenal, some of which date back 70+ years that were passed down to me by people that I have worked with over the years. They still are as accurate as they were when they were made. I have to have them standardized on a regular basis, so they a traceable to the National Bureau of Standards. I apologize for not including that in my earlier post. Actually I am embarrassed that I missed that one. Thanks |
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| Author: | KenH [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
One thing that hasnt been mentioned here is a good set of center finding rules. I have several, a 24" (12" on each side), a 12" (6" on each side), and a 6" (3" on each side). I use these ALL THE TIME too keep things on center. You can get them at woodcraft but I am sure other places carry them also. I agree with the machinist's combination square and the dial caliper and some form of thickness measurment. I have a digital micrometer that I bought on ebay for little $$. My combo square is a staratt. |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
zehley wrote: Has anyone ever said "I wish I would have got the cheap one". I only heard it once...I was visiting when a guy knocked a brand new LN jack plane off his bench onto a concrete floor...as it turned out the manager of the Woodcraft where he bought it (that day) felt so bad for him he sold him another at his employee discount price. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
I would add to the excellent advice that you don't need to buy every tool right away, or all at once. And you don' HAVE to buy lots of power tools, especially large stationary tools (at least not yet). Determine what you need, and buy the tools as needed. Good measuring tools and at least one good plane are an excellent place to start, and will be used for many tasks for many years. When buying good drill bits, you don't have to buy complete sets. Places like Lee Valley will sell individual sizes, just get what you need. Get a good pencil sharpener and a good broom. |
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| Author: | jhowell [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
INHO cheap tools really aren't worth the bother in most cases. I have been fortunate in being able to snag some good used machinist's tools from the 'Bay. This can be a pretty good alternative to buying new, as long as you aren't in a great hurry for something. I have a really good No 5 Stanley plane that I got on e-Bay for about $20. A set of Hock steel and a day of flattening, trueing and mumbling and I have a plane that I am very happy with. I also decided to learn the scary sharp sharpening system and while there are many ways to skin the sharpening cat, scary sharp serves the purpose. Plane steel, chisels and knives need to be exquisitely sharp to be useful. |
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| Author: | Rich Schnee [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Newbie with constant dilema over tools... |
McMaster-Carr has a clear plastic 18” rule Cat #20345A28. I believe Staples or OfficeMax has them but they are much thinner. I use them on a daily basis. I highly recommend having at least one and since they are cheep I would get a few of them. |
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