Official Luthiers Forum!

I've got a troublesome situation with build #3. I've fretted it twice now this afternoon/evening, and both times the frets rocked back and forth in the slots. I thought maybe I had filed the edge of the slot a little too much before fretting the first time, so out they came. Well, second attempt, and same problem. Only when I start to level the frets does it become readily apparent... terrible file chatter, and then once there's a level spot on the frets, I can clearly see that they are rocking back and forth. Very disturbing... and time and effort consuming

The problem seems to be that the fretboard slots are wider than they should be. The slots were cut with a .023" blade, but somehow they have ended up somewhat wider, closer to .025". I think I need to try some fret wire with oversize fret tangs. (I'm not too keen on gluing the frets in, but would do so if necessary).

Does anyone know where to source this type of "refretting" wire? Neither LMI nor Stew-Mac have any listed on their websites, but would they possibly carry it and just not have it listed in their main inventory?

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

Ken

Woops... I posted as a guest, but I am a member.

Ken

Woops... I posted as a guest, but I am a member.

Ken

Martin used to sell it, but I'm not sure now that they've all but shut down their parts catalog. I was never too crazy about the quality of their wire anyway. You can always crimp the tang.

What reason do you have for not wanting to glue them? I don't think I'd ever want to do a fret job without gluing them. Just no good reason not to in my opinion.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Ken,

Have you checked to make sure that your sled is running perfectly parallel to your saw blade? If it is just the slightest bit out it will make the kerf wider. This is an area that requires a lot of attention.
Shane

_________________
Canada

Ken,
I have found my best bet for fret wire is Jescar.The wire I get will fit a .025" slot just fine .SM and LMI wire have been fine too.It's the barb width that is key ,most wire has less than .022" tang width.
A couple of questions though .Is your slot depth about .005" to .010" deeper than your tang depth? Is your fret wire only slightly over radiused? Too tight and frets wont stay seated properly.
A tool that might help you is a fret crimper to widen the tang a bit.I think LMI and SM sell a version.
After fretting more necks than I can remember ,
I can say that a little ca glue applied in the fret slots with a syringe is the best way of ensuring your frets don't eventually pop up.I use the medium viscosity glue. I also press my frets in because hammering too hard can bounce the fret out of the slot just enough to annoy you to no end. With a press you can also hold the fret down while the glue sets.
Hope this helps ,good luck

_________________
How long is that in luthyears?

Thanks to everyone for replying.

Shane, we cut the slots down at Paul Harrell's shop, on his table saw, with the SM blade and jig for slotting fretboards. He's got a pretty high-end table saw (and overall set-up at his shop). He's fretted one other guitar in the meantime with his set-up, and had no problem with frets popping out.

The frets went in fine both times... they seated in very flat and evenly, but as I started working on them, clipping off the ends, filing them, beveling, and then moving toward leveling them, I could feel them moving right away, and by the time I got to leveling them, it was apparent that there was a big problem. First time I used LMI (their standard fret wire, #74, I believe), second time I used your wire (Shane's), which visually has much more defined, precision tangs, BTW.

After describing this in detail to Paul, he thinks I may just have a really soft piece of EIR, maybe some from the coffee plantations, which is renewable, but harvested pretty fast. I think he's right. It sanded REALLY fast between frettings. The only other possible culprit could be the oil I used to prep the slots. It seems unlikely that it would weaken the wood to the point that the frets would start rocking like this, but I guess it's possible.

In any case, I think I'm going to use some sort of glue, maybe 10-minute epoxy, and try this again. I'll check the archives for info on various glues. (Would CA work well in this case, as mentioned above?) If anyone has a specific glue recommendation, or other words of wisdom, I would certainly appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks again to all for thoughts and suggestions. I'll post again after I have some news.

Ken

Low viscosity CA, a pipette, and run it along the side of each fret. You can wax the board before, or wipe with acetone after applying, or just clean the bead off with a chisel. If a fret squeaks when I'm leveling I would never have considered pulling it out. I just grab the pipette of thin superglue that's always handy and start gluing the frets in.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David,
Thanks for the recommendations. I will do just that. But to be more descriptive about what was happening... this was more than just a fret or two, it was all of them. And it wasn't just a squeak... they were screaming. Filings were dancing all over the board... it was horrible. There were visible gaps where the frets were working their way loose, from all the back and forth motion. Clearly an unacceptable situation overall.

I hope the glue trick works. I'll repost with results.

Ken

David,
Thanks for the recommendations. I will do just that. But to be more descriptive about what was happening... this was more than just a fret or two, it was all of them. And it wasn't just a squeak... they were screaming. Filings were dancing all over the board... it was horrible. There were visible gaps where the frets were working their way loose, from all the back and forth motion. Clearly an unacceptable situation overall.

I hope the glue trick works. I'll repost with results.

Ken

To David, Shane, Brett and Todd (and Paul, who was ever helpful by phone), a big thanks to all. after three tries, I *think* this fret job has worked out successfully. I ended up using CA, eventually (after trying a couple of other methods) letting it wick down the fret slots vertically, then fretting. No chatter as I evened up the ends, and beveled them. I haven't leveled them yet, but I think the problem has been solved.

I still don't know what the culprit was, which is a little disconcerting. But I think I *do* like the idea of gluing the frets, after doing it this way. So if necessary, I know what to do in the future now as well.

Ken

If that EIR board is soft enough to be that poor at holding the barbs solidly, which does sound like a good explanation for your problem, then it will also be likely to develop divots very quickly if it ever gets played by someone who's tough on fretboards. One of my mentors early on advised against using anything but the hardest ebonies, ziricote, and similarly very hard woods for fretboards, advice which makes a lot of sense to me. You might want to consider taking EIR off your list of fretboard woods - it may still be commonly used on factory guitars, but that doesn't mean it's really a very good idea.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/