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allergy questions
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15963		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  KenH [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  allergy questions
I stayed up late last night doing some final sanding on the body of a Pao Ferro guitar that is going to Miami.
I have been working on this guitar for a few weeks, and have had what I thought was a cold that would get better and then worse. As a fluke, I took a prescription drug, Allegra, for allergies and all of a sudden I got alot better....until last night.

This morning I woke up with what looks like a rash on the insides of my elbows, and under my watch and in my beard. my nose and throat are so sore that I cant hardly swallow.

I am finally figuring out that I have an allergy for this Pao Ferro wood. Afther this guitar is complete, I wont have any more of it in my shop.

The question is for those of you that have developed allergies, do you have allergies to other woods, or is it one particualr species? Is ther any other woods that are closely related to Pao Ferro that I may also be allergic to?

Any advice is appreciated!!
Author:  JBreault [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
No experience here, but a few have posted about reactions to cocobolo.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Ken, this is not an answer to your question, but A lot of people can not work with Pao Ferro. Its one of "those" type woods, just like cocobolo.
I would be careful with it, which is looks like you are.
Author:  Colin S [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Ken there has been a lot of discussion about P. ferro allergy in the past, a quick search will bring up a lot of threads on it. 15% or so of the population are allergic to P.ferro (me included, I ended up in ER, I think Mario is another). The other major wood allergy seems to be cocobolo, though I've never used it. I think the main advice is be careful of any wood dust.

Colin
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Yessir, that all sounds way too familiar. The feeling like a cold's coming on part, the Allegra helping out(Allergra-D worked best), and then progressing to the rash.

Sorry to say, this is your last PauFerro guitar....

so far for me, PauFerro, BoisD'rose, and Spanish cedar are problematic. Cocobolo's still fine.
Author:  ChuckH [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Howdy Ken, sorry you are ailing. I just googled Pao ferro and the first result was from This Site about Contact Dermatitis
"Five carpenters in a television set factory hail allergic contact dermatitis of the hands, forearms and neck after contact with the sawdust of the Brazilian rosewood substitute Machaerium scleraxylon Tul. (Pao ferro)
Patch tests with R-3,4dimethoxydalbergione from Pao ferro and with two other Dalbergiones from Rosewood species were positive. R-3, 4-dirnethoxydalbergione isolated from the Pao ferro sample was shown to he a strong sensitizer and thus to be responsible for these cases of contact allergy."

Thanks for posting and sharing this as I didn't realize a guy could get an allergic reaction to wood. I am real suseptable to allergies so THANK YOU for the heads up. Hope you get well soon.
Author:  JimWomack [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
I've not used any Pau Ferro, so I couldn't speak with any authority. My problem wood is Makore. I bought some non-figured boards a few years ago. Figured I'd resaw some back/side sets and some neck blanks (looks a lot like Mahogany to me). It happened pretty quick... cold-like symptoms, respiratory problems, skin rash, etc. I managed to finish one guitar with the stuff. Long sleeve shirts and a respirator helped, but not entirely. No problems with Cocobolo yet but I understand that sometimes these wood allergies can creep up on you the more you are exposed.
Author:  martinedwards [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
I sniffled a LOT sanding the macassar ebony fretboard & bridge on my last mandola....

My workshop is my highschool classroom so I can't take ANY risks with allergic woods. One of the girls in my form class (home room?) is badly allergic to a LOAD of things so she isn't even allowed into the workshop just in case.

I love the look of cocobolo, but I won't ever get the chance to work with it, and pau ferro looks like it wont be touched either.......
Author:  ChuckH [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Howdy Ken, sorry you are ailing. I just googled Pao ferro and the first result was from This Site about Contact Dermatitis
"Five carpenters in a television set factory hail allergic contact dermatitis of the hands, forearms and neck after contact with the sawdust of the Brazilian rosewood substitute Machaerium scleraxylon Tul. (Pao ferro)
Patch tests with R-3,4dimethoxydalbergione from Pao ferro and with two other Dalbergiones from Rosewood species were positive. R-3, 4-dirnethoxydalbergione isolated from the Pao ferro sample was shown to he a strong sensitizer and thus to be responsible for these cases of contact allergy."

Thanks for posting and sharing this as I didn't realize a guy could get an allergic reaction to wood. I am real suseptable to allergies so THANK YOU for the heads up. Hope you get well soon.
Author:  jsimpson [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Hiya Ken -
Sorry to hear you're having a reaction. I too had a run-in with that, but not as bad as yours. For me, it was the guitar I finished around Christmas time last year and was either the Hondo Rosewood or the Taz Tiger Myrtle. Hoping it was the RW as I have a tiger myrtle build coming up in the near future! I never broke out in a rash as you have, just the constant sneezing and stuffiness. Once the guitar was gone, it was like someone flipped a switch and all the symptoms were gone as well.

Prior to guitar building, I never would've suspected that we could be allergic to something as organic as wood! But then again, cats are organic.....pollen is organic....and.......

Hope you're doing better,
Jon

PS. How did your Box Elder guitar turn out? Would love to see pix if you have them!
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
And as a friendly reminder, I built a whole shop air cleaner recently, and it's still on the MIMF in the tools section.

Go.

Build one.

It might just be the most important thing you do this year, or in this lifetime.
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Ken, I'm sorry that you have had to cross a beautiful wood off your list, but I'm glad you only had a mild reaction.

It was a good post Mario. Thanks for sharing with us over here and for taking the pictures. I wasn't getting it from your description. I have enough respiratory issues the for my birthday, Sweetie has bought me a blower fan so I can follow your advice. Not exactly what I had in mind, but the thoughtfulness behind it might have had something to do with the the doctor telling me that the mask wasn't enough any more and I should quit now, close the shop and not go back. I thought that was a bit dramatic. So I have moved dust collection and containment up to the top of the list of things to do.
Its one thing when your skin itches, its something all together different when the lungs react badly. [xx(]
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Dust collection is one thing, but there will always be the finest of dust that floats around. I now believe our biggest mistake is ignoring that aspect of it.

A fan, a handful of filters(get some really fine filters, don't cheap out! Good ones will run you nearly $100) and a box to house it all in will work. Mine is built-in because i had the space, because having a built-in and very quiet system was my #1 requirement. But the basics are the same; something to move a lot of air, and some high efficiency filters to clean the air as it moves through. I've adopted a 3 level filter system right now, and it seems to work. I have the high efficiency Filtrete Ultra($30) protected by a $10 pleated filter protected by a $5 furnace filter pair. Now that's I've shopped around some more, I've found better filters, still(the $100 and up ones) that are washable, so once the Filtrete clogs, I'll move up to them, perhaps, or maybe even use it in front of the Filtrete. I may also double the filter banks to increase flow if it begins t drop off too soon, but so far, over 2 weeks and the flow is still excellent. I'm working on making myself a homemade manometer, as soon as I figure out the Pitot tube part, so I can calculate actual flow.
Author:  Sam Price [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
A pal of mine is a lifelong woodworker and from the "old school" of thought with regards to air quality. He has a dust extraction system he hardly runs, and over a lifetime he has developed respiratory allergies to most common & exotic woods, including mahogany.

Makes me realise that air filtration is really important.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
I've known about Pau Ferro and Cocobolo since before I've used them, so I've always been careful with them and haven't had any problems yet. That said, I don't use a lot of them. Ebony tends to get to me (and has from the very first time I've used it), but with the dust collector and air cleaner it's only really a mess when I need to resaw a bunch of the stuff.

I can definitely tell the difference between 'ebony night' and the next day when the air cleaner's been running all night.
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
The problem with the old school thinkers is that power sanders are a fairly new device. In fact, all the sanding we do, by hand or with power tools, is fairly new. For thousands of years, woodworkers uses edge tools mostly, and often in the open air, or large breezy barns or outbuildings. Abrasive shaping is a recent thing, as is the closed up, climate controlled shop space. So, we're seeing only the beginnings of one generation of wood workers with the severe problems. Before them, it wasn't an issue. My dad never even had a shop vac....
Author:  Billy T [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Sand has been used for thousands of years to polish stone, wood, what have you. The whole idea of sand paper came from this.

The power aspects are new and quantity of dust, but not even the fine dust is new. A craftsman would grind his own sand using mortar and pestle to the consistancy desired and work accordingly. Louis the XIIV was not done with only edged tools let alone woodwork from the Pharoahs!
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Good stuff Mario, exactly as I think. What took YOU so long? <BBG>

While we're at it ~ Don't recommend anyone throw themselves into this wholeheartedly until they've thought it through whole headedly. I can't imagine that because one throws themselves in wholesale, that they'll make great guitars in a year, be ready to sell at boutique level, have mstered their chops, learned the craft, honed their skills, etc.

Guys, don't kill yourself early for the lust of beautiful wood, hope of being renown, recognition as a "world class luthier" etc. Too busy making guitars to take care of that looming health issue? Neglecting your loved ones? Not having time to make health & sanity a priority is foolishness. There I said it out loud. Your spouse will thank you for added "life" to your years, and years to your life.

<steppin down off soapbox...>
Author:  burbank [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
And as it should be with all threads on the subject, here's a link to Bill Pentz's excellent site. Essential reading.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
Author:  luthier24 [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Sorry to hear about the allergy. I, too, developed an allergic reaction to Pau Ferro several months ago. Having no other allegies prior to this, I was disappointed to find out I could no longer work with PF. The rash on my arms lasted about eight weeks.

To answer your post, I have not had any other allergic reactions to the following woods: Brazilian. East Indian, and Madagascar Rosewood; African and Honduran Mahogany; Ziricote, Macassar Ebony; Koa, Claro Wlanut; or Spanish Cypress.

I hope this helps and that you, as a fellow Floridian, devlop no other wood allergies.
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Billy, of course abrasives have been around forever, but never in the quantity that we now enjoy, and with the power tools to produce tons of fine dust.

And that's my whole point. We've never seen this much dust, especially not in small, closed off environments.
Author:  Dave Higham [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that these species of wood are sensitizers (I think that's the right word). Which means that if you try it again you're likely to have a much more serious reaction and a third experience could land you in intensive care!
So, as Mario said, make that the last time you use Pau Ferro. From what I've read elsewhere Pau Ferro has the worst reputation but it's not the only one.
Author:  Brad Way [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Pau Ferro...been there, done that! Many years ago I had a serious reaction to the wood and have never used it since. I noticed recently that I had a small reaction to Cocobolo so it is also do not use list.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
Thanks Dave for the post re: sensitizers!

Once you have a reaction to a known sensitizer consider it a warning and act on it. The next exposure may very well be far more severe......

My ex was a sensitizer and with each additional exposure I got sicker and sicker........ But being the fair sort that I am she had the same reaction to me........ :D Allegra did not help either of us but a judge did...... :D
Author:  Dean [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: allergy questions
A friend of mine has the worst allergic reaction I've ever seen. Swells up like a balloon, turns bright red with a rash and his bronchi swell shut in a matter of minutes if I have any bloodwood in my shop. He is allergic to pau ferro, but nothing like the bloodwood.
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