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jfmckenna asked:
"Alan after you pore fill and sand back wouldn't a spit coat of shellac seal the wood so your first coat of varnish would not take so long to cure? Or are you worried about the compatibility of shellac under the varnish?"

I apply varnish directly to the wood to avoid issues with the different refractive index of shellac. I used varnish over shellac for a while, but I noticed a 'veiled' look, with patchy spots where I sanded through to the wood. Varnish on the wood looked much better.

Shellac doesn't seem to seal the oily woods that slow the varnish drying down well enough; I've had better luck with CA.

Hesh wrote:
"There is a reason why nitro has stood the test of time in Lutherie and that is because it's easy, sort of.... has a fast learning curve, sort of.... does not require (but you should) expensive equipment for safety or application and it's cheap."

I totally disagree. I used nitro, too, back in the dissipated days of my misspent youth. Now I won't touch it if I can help it. It's a chemical, health, fire, and environmental hazard to apply, and it's not chemically stable. It breask down over time, releasing nitrates that react with moisture in the air to form nitric acid, which attacks other things. It's rated as 'toxic' by museum conservators, and has to be isolated from other objects for their safety. I used to spray the stuff out on the fire escape, with only a dust mask. Now my kidneys complain if I open a can. My older brother got a medical exemption from the draft because of liver and kidney damage from nitro used in model airplane construction. It looks good when fresh, but it doesn't hold up. There are far better finishes out there, and we should aim higher than the factories.

As for oil based finishes: the one study I know of that compared the mechanical and acoustic effects of finishes found that drying oil adds mass and damping, and the more oil there is the more it adds. This was based on looking at plain boiled and sun-thickened linseed, iirc, and did not test things like Tru-Oil. With these minimally processed oils the low molecular weight components can penetrate very deeply into the wood, which adds mass, although not much stiffness. The oils in the study also did not form a water proof film over the long term; once they've cured they're no longer inherently water repellant, and need to be renewed, which adds more mass, and so on. I'm not sure if any of that is the case for Tru-oil and the ilk. Anyway, low damping in guitars seems to be a good idea, at very least, and I understand some recent experimental work backs that up.

On Classicals, particularly spruce or redwood topped ones, I like to use FP on the top, and varnish on the B&S. Having had one kid dig a piece out of the cedar top on my 'show' guitar I've resigned myself to varnish on those. At any rate, a thin coat of a short-oil varnish, like the Murdoch's, probably doesn't do much harm. You have to strike a balance on this stuff.

99% of the people who buy guitars from me do NOT want a Martin/Gibson/Taylor/ guitar in any way what so ever. So a mirror gloss polished finish is not an 'expectation' from these people. My goal is to sound better than Martin, or at least offer a different and personal sound (because I love Martins), to provide a very unique instrument to a customer who wants just that. And that doesn't meant that the finish is going to look terrible but the finish is going to look like I did it not some guy at Martin that has thousands of hours in the spray booth followed by a staff that polishes it up to perfection. This is the expectation and understanding of everyone who I have built for in the past.

John describes my customers as well. They buy for the sound and playability. My finish is pretty good but not factory-like. If I were more patient on the buffing, it might shine more, but I’ve been told by some that they prefer the subdued shine. If it bothers potential buyers, then they buy something else. I’ve sold quite a few guitars.

I’ve been using EM6000 for quite a while. I got a guitar back for finish repair from a customer last week. He’s had it for 11 years. He’s a professional player and plays the instrument several hours a day. Every where he touches when playing had the finish peeled off. I’ve seen the same thing happen to nitro finished guitars. This guitar is an exception as far as I know (I’ve got well over 100 out in the wild). My personal player is 15 years old with the same finish (or its predecessor PSL or USL—I don’t remember when the change to EM6000 happened) and the finish on it is like new. Up until Covid, I played professionally, too, but not even close to as much as my customer.

I have brushed and then leveled the EM6000 in the winter when I didn’t want to set up indoors to spray. It works that way, but it’s more effort than spraying and does take some special technique.

I talked to Jeff at Target Coatings. He suggested I try adding his crosslinker to the EM6000 when I partially refinish. He didn’t seem too alarmed about the wear in the finish. We both agreed that some folks’ body chemistries may not be finish compatible.

Anyway, the EM6000 is a viable finish suitable for use in a home in a neighborhood where a solvent-based finish would be unacceptable.

Here’s two stories for you:

Many years ago I was one of the many, many small builders who were stung by one of the “hard shellac” formulations which was marketed explicitly to luthiers and which was not fit for purpose and crazed like an 80-year-old nitro finish within six months.

I’ll add that I was using said finish as part of this very quest - the search for a less toxic, hand applied finish that could achieve high gloss and be more durable than French polish.

Two of my guitars were affected and I of course had to do the right thing and strip and refinish them under my warranty. There was a significant cost to this. I refinished them in nitro, sprayed outdoors, no expensive booth. That was 10 years ago and they are all looking great to this day. I have only used nitro since.

Second story - I had in my workshop recently two expensive, limited run resonators from one of the iconic resonator manufacturers. Beautiful instruments, both less than 10 years old, both suffering from horrific blistering and delaminating of the (modern sprayed) finish on every surface despite being babied and barely played their whole lives. The manufacturer has since agreed to refinish both at their own expense under warranty.

So finish failures absolutely happen, out in the real world where money and reputations are at stake. I’m sure there are many other viable finishes and I cast no aspersions on them. I tried tru oil, various other wiping and brushing varnishes too. I’d still love to find that unicorn small shop finish. But it’s no surprise that nitro is popular when:

1. Many buyers want and even expect it on a high end guitar
2. It’s relatively simple and forgiving to spray, level, buff compared to some of the alternatives
3. It’s easy to repair invisibly should a guitar ever come back to the maker with an issue
4. There’s a vast number, some older than 70 years, of nitro instruments out there so everyone involved, maker, customer etc knows and can predict how it will age - no surprises.

I appreciate the many views offered. I have used a number of finishes, and I have, at least for the moment, ruled out nitro. I live in Florida. We don't get many days I can spray outside. I don't want to bear the expense of building a spray booth, as I do not have the space - so it would be a very expensive endeavor for me.

I also appreciate the conversation re: marketability. However, that was not the focus of my question. I am looking at hand applied alternatives that can be done in a small shop. Some great suggestions, and I will try a few.

My rattle can electric guitars actually came out pretty good. However, given my environment, it takes way too long for me to get the days outside for this solution. I really like the results I get with Tru Oil, but as I said, looking for something possibly more durable. I will def try Endurovar, as it sounds like a good alternative.

Glenn

EV works for me, don't care what anyone says about finishing floors, except my clients..

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

As expected and predicted those who feel that their Gore got oxed by my opinion and experience that convention and tradition is a very strong force in the minds of the guitar buying public my position remains unchanged. Regardless of what you believe or even want to do if you intend to sell your creations to the public you must keep an eye on convention and why things have been done as they have for a very long time.

Some of you have sold some and I liked the expression "into the wild" and you consider that an accurate sampling of the guitar market in general and you're wrong. These are often people you knew or have some association with and they are positioned to accept what they get by the idea that you, we are small builders. These people can be neighbors, friends, family etc. This is not your creation hanging on a wall in a music store with big company name instruments hanging near yours and no one to push your stuff any harder than the rest of what's there. This is the market where a "spec" guitar looks for a steward and that spec guitar won't fare well with an already skeptical "never heard your name before..." prospective buyer when that lifetime warranty Martin with superb resale value hangs next to yours.

This is also not a commission where both parties may, may.... feel a sense of obligation to compromise on expectations because you are a small builder. I speak of market pressures and expectations not what we may wish for.

How do finishes fail was addressed too and I never got into that but one way, the primary way goes back to my assertion about the market. If a finish is ugly.... it's a failure because a good finish not only protects, well, is sonically as transparent as possible but it's beautiful too AND will stand up to time.

Anyway that's my story I'm a fan of spraying..... nitro or FPS (French polished shellac) for small builders and I have yet to see non-sprayed alternatives that perform as well with the three criteria I just listed. I will say again too that for ease of use and lack of other equipment rattle can nitro can do a dang good job too in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot it.

Do whatever you want that what we all do. I ran silent and deep myself when I was producing and selling 24 a year. I refused to do commissions and required someone to make their decision to purchase with one of mine in their lap so they are/were buying what they were playing, no surprises. None ever came back except for one lifted bridge after being left in a car in Nashville.

I won't be the one to suggest that what you do is off the mark but the market will be...... Fact! Your success as a luthier may have a dependency on how much you are guided by and respect your market. Mine certainly was.

So to recap.... is there a small shop finish with professional results that also meets market expectations for sonic transparency, durability/protection and beauty and is NOT sprayed?

No beyond FPS which has toughness issues for gigging musicians.

Right-on Josh finish failures are as common as one's standards are high.... and demanding excellence from any finish.

For the entire history of this forum one water based alternative after another was tired and then someone reports problems and failures including adhesion issues where the finish may come off or remain soft.

Glen I get you and sorry that I can't be more helpful here. I do not believe that there is an alternative that produces commercial quality results, is not sprayed and will hold up as well as sprayed nitro, cat poly, cat urethane or French polished shellac. Water based stuff to me has always been a long walk on a short pier and our archives are littered with people complaining about finish failures citing delimitation, blotchiness, blush, reaction with body chemistry, reaction with epoxy pore fill on and on and on.

Beautiful Colin - was this sprayed, brushed, padded how did you apply the finish?

This is where SystemThree SilverTip has a leg up on West and some other epoxies. It doesn't have the amine blush problem. It can be recoated over itself for 72 hours without sanding. It can also be thinned 10% by weight with lacquer thinner (this tip isn't in the documentation but came from SystemThree tech support) and, even without the lacquer thinner, it's lower viscosity than many other epoxy products so it's well suited to wipe-on, wipe-off as done by Ken Parker. It also is 100% solids, i.e, no VOCs, so there are no fumes. I'm often able to get two coats a day. I've been using it for years on necks and it is both durable and comfortable to play. It can be used as its own pore filler if a smooth, satin finish is desired. It can also be used for a more basic finish (wipe-on, wipe-off) without building up to the pore-filled level. I use it on tops as well as back and sides. It's easy to get a nice, smooth satin finish at .001-.002" on the top so it does not impair the tone. As with all epoxies, it's important to wear gloves and avoid skin contact, as some people develop a reaction. Beginning with West when it was first available, I've been using various epoxies for 50 years and haven't had any problems, knock wood. This tenor ukulele has SilverTip on back, sides, top and neck:

https://theukulelesite.com/shop-by/cust ... tenor.html

The finish that has held up the best on any of the guitars I own is a violin varnish. At 190 years old it still looks quite nice. The soundboard of the guitar was left unfinished except, perhaps, for some egg sizing. Not to butcher someone's sacred cow but it is rare for a nitrocellulose finish to reach the 50 year mark unblemished.
I've used a number of different finishes over the years - shellac, tru-oil, precat lacquers, polyurethanes, nitrocellulose, and water bourne. Rubbed on, brushed on, rolled on, and sprayed.
Being somewhat lazy and living away from neighbors where I can use it, I've settled on nitrocellulose when the weather is fit, and Enduro Var (brushed) when I want to do finish work in the house.
The Enduro Var is easy to brush on, seems to stick to itself if applied in a timely manner, buffs out to a nice shine, and seems relatively durable. When brushed it is almost odorless. I just wish it wasn't quite so yellow. I may try adding a few drops of brown dye stain to amber it up a bit more next time I use it.
As to the marketability of the finish - I am less concerned about that than having a finish I can apply well and make look nice and have reasonable durability. But I don't have the commercial pressures of a professional builder who needs to sell to live, or a cork sniffing clientele who demand I do things their way.
I know this post is somewhat redundant to my first post, but I wanted to add that I think the best finish from the stand point of looks and durability is varnish, and that for those, such as myself, who don't make a living building musical instruments, options other than nitro are available.

Thanks Hesh.
This was sprayed, but WoodieG and Todd Stock use a foam brush for EV application by preference, and I have seen others here do the same very successfully.

Just a few points - nearly all my guitars have been sold as spec builds, the commissions I have sold have been the result of people seeing/playing my guitars, then buying them (3 in a week recently) or ordering something specific. Only one was commissioned blind, and he's looking for another one.
I've been to guitar shows where other builders (nitro users in the main) have asked what I the heck use for a finish and request my schedules.
EV finish does not separate from epoxy pore fill as long as amine blush is removed (I've used Zepoxy, Art Resin and BSI finish epoxy all successfully)
It also seems impervious to alcohol, acetone, whiskey, beer & water once fully cured, unlike Nitro, is easily repairable with Gluboost (I can't see them and I know what was done), and I've patched an EV finish with new EV months after curing without witness lines as long as it is dry sanded, go figure.
As for sonically, I seem to recall, for example, Greven and Laurent Brondel guitars, both of whom have used EV, being quite well reckoned.
I've heard it said no finish is ideal, but EV ticks a lot of my boxes, and at the least it doesn't stink and it's not toxic to work with, but I still like to wear a mask.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Very cool and thanks for the data and details. I appreciate that you and I can communicate without being defensive about our positions, that's how I learn best.

I'm impressed and think you have a good thing going and it's likely you have worked very hard to get the knowledge that you have and the results that are clearly very impressive.

The only base that remains an unknown is how it does over time and you my friend will likely be in a position to share that with us in time too.

Thanks Colin very much appreciated.

I'm sure John Greven has an I idea of how it does over time - ?
I've only been using it since 2013.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Hey Colin, your results are excellent. I’ve been interested in trying EV. Have you by chance posted your finishing schedule here?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Think I've posted a couple of times following requests, here's one thread.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53583&p=703505&hilit=+schedule+ev#p703505

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I thought you had. Thanks Colin!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

You are very welcome Sir!

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Colin—

You are getting excellent results, obviously. I needed no convincing that Enduro Var is a great product, because I have used it myself, and I was happy with the finish, but your results really tell the tale. I’m curious regarding your experience with the new formulation of Enduro Var (Enduro Var II). Anything to report?

I have bought some but not used it yet.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Are you saying that the instrument is entirely finished in Silver TiP?

Yes, the whole instrument. OK, not the fretboard and bridge, of course! I haven't become aware of any buyer resistance to this or any disappointment with the quality of the finish. Quite the contrary. I've explained to my customers that for personal health reasons and environmental reasons I will no longer spray. Responses have been supportive and no one has balked or pulled out of a commission. Of course, most finishes can be considered environmentally negative because they are mostly manufactured from petroleum but at least epoxy that is 100% solids doesn't have much impact due to application or to disposal of byproducts that, once cured, are more inert than most finishes.

Wow! Interesting. They look great!

I want to go back to this video Don shared. The luthier shares a lot about their process during the first 15 minutes or so, but if you jump to 20:38, he starts showing off the final buffed product. I'm more excited about post-cat Royal Lac than even before and can't wait to give it a try on my current project as soon as the weather starts warming up a bit in the next few weeks.

I'm really encouraged by some of the alternative finish options available now. I agree that nitro is easy and accessible, but I no longer have a viable place to let it gas out and cure for a month. I think it would be fun and informative to do some test panels with Post Cat Royal Lac and Enduro-Var just to do a side by side comparison. They both seem like great options. I still have a can of high gloss Eduro-Var, so I'll see how viable it still is. I think it's about four years old.

Well, that's your problem right there. We're not talking about the same slice of the "market". It's a dark cold place out there with little to no room for ANY guitar hanging on a wall in a music store, let alone a guitar from any of us. Heck, it's a dark cold place for music stores.

I wholeheartedly agree that if you were trying to build a couple of dozen guitars and hang them on a wall to attract a buyer away from a Taylor you really needed to have a finish that looks and performs like the robotic sprayed finish of a Taylor. But I'm not sure that would be your biggest challenge today. First, you are going to have to find a wall. Twenty years ago there were three music stores in my cozy little city of five million that sold upscale guitars. Now the nearest store is over one hundred miles away.

Even if you do find some store still struggling to hang on, you are going to have to compete in price. I bought an entry level Martin thirty five years ago for $800. I can buy a comparable Martin today for about $1200. In that same amount of time, in-state college tuition has gone from $1,300 to $15,000. If I was to give the store owner 50% of the sale, I would be lucky to clear any money after the cost of wood and tuners. Maybe I would clear a couple of hundred bucks. Woe is me if I want to earn the median household income of $68,000/yr. I would have to sell 300 or 400 guitars a year. For those of us starting to feel a little arthritis in our fingers, that doesn't feel doable.

The point is, I don't think there is any builder today who thinks they are going to hang a guitar "on a music store wall with big company name instruments hanging near yours". If you don't have an alternative way of selling guitars, after you saturated your friends and acquaintances, you're not selling guitars regardless of the finish. If you are Ken Parker, you can build and sell a guitar every year or two for over $30,000 and wipe it down with West Epoxy and TruOil.

I hope that doesn't sound too cynical or dark. Ever since my dad passed I've become the resident old coot of my family. I think we are agreeing, but coming at it from different angles. If you are going to spec build a bunch of guitars and try to sell them in a brick and mortar music store I think Hesh is 100% correct. The guitars on the walls are all UV Cured Poly or Nitro, sprayed on and buffed on a wheel. If you want to compete you had better figure out how to do that in your small shop. If you accept that you will NEVER compete in that market, and have somehow miraculously found a different market, perhaps any number of finishes will work --as long as you can pull it off to a high level. I stand by what I was told so many years ago: tone thrills, but finish sells.