Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm sure they can agree to disagree.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

The super low clearance is only when holding the string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets. When the string is released the 1st fret action is 11.2% of the 12th fret action, as John said earlier.

It's possible you could take it lower than that in some cases and still not buzz, but that probably means you have a problem somewhere else forcing your 12th fret action higher than it could be. e.g. a high fret that buzzes on some fretted notes if you take the action any lower, but doesn't get in the way of the open string.

Makes sense to me...

I’ve never heard the 11.2% number before, which is pretty cool to know. I guess even with Hesh’s method, which is also how I do my nuts more or less, there’s still enough wiggle room over the fret to handle the slight decrease from dropping the action. My rationale has always been to make the final few thou adjustments at the nut last for fear of getting buzz by dropping the action last, but perhaps there’s enough space for that fear to be unfounded...

Funny how this discussion reappears regularly with the same disagreements argued with equal passion.

Just think about this for a bit:
Take the nut out of consideration by putting a capo at the first fret. Now fret string between the 3rd and 4th fret and measure the clearance (“action”) between the string and the 2nd fret.
Now remove the capo and repeat the exercise, but this time fretting the string between the 2nd and 3rd, and measuring at the first.
Answer these questions:
1. Should the measurements differ?
2. Why?

As a supplementary exercise, move the capo to other fret positions and repeat. Note that none of the specified measurements are affected by saddle height.

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Because you are using the incorrect metric and I'm not trying to be anything but helpful to you Ed, being disagreeable is the last reason why I would ever want to be here.

By incorrect metric you said that you don't see how my .0005" clearance for say the high e (it's different for every string) does not disappear or reduce if you lower the action. You would be correct it does but this is not what I said that I do.

I said that I fret the string between the 2nd and 3rd fret and observe the space over the first fret crown. I work the slot until I have around that .0005" again for the high e and maybe the b only. Because I'm fretting between the 2nd and 3rd AND holding it while pulsing the string over the 1st what ever the action of the instrument is is taken completely out of play. We don't care because the action will be addressed last again sequentially.

relief
nut slots
saddle(s)

Does this make sense Ed? Tell me if it doesn't I want to help. Thanks

You know I could set-up someone's guitar on 5th avenue and get away with it Seriously I've averaged over 500 set-ups annually for the last ten years doing this method. My return rate meaning someone may hit harder than we knew or may do drop tunings to low C.... and it rattles and they didn't tell us about the drop tunings is around 1%. That's very good for something as personal as a guitar set-up AND with many of my clients being professional musicians. When one of my set-ups does come back it's almost always to raise action often because it turned into winter here and the new guitar was not humidified too.

Anyway it's been the major money maker for our business and forecastable and reliable too making it a welcome thing. I enjoy the hell out of setting up people's guitars and they are really, really good with me often proactively raving about how they were treated and how well their guitar plays. These are the ones that don't get thrown out or have me threaten to throw them down the stairs. Never a dull moment and always a good time.

So it's with the string fretted and held that we measure the space between the 1st fret crown and the bottom of the string. I'll add since there are finer points too in a master class. Not only are we pulsing the string up and down over the 1st fret we press the string firmly into the slot that we just cut to be sure there is no binding AND the string is always tuned to pitch.

Why do we cut slots with the strings tuned to pitch? Because the way that the string bends over the face of the nut slot and that little bit of arc and how it behaves for this specific string, etc.

Getting or making a string lifter is your friend. I wouldn't be without one.

Hey Barry - You know this is not unusual especially in the Lutherie trade. Lots of Luthiers hit the ground running and keep their heads down doing what we do how we do it for years and unless they are exposed to other ideas or something does not work for them there is little reason to see alternative.... solutions.

This is where things like the Northwoods Seminar have much more value than just a great place to get stoned with your friends who are professional Luthiers. It's a great place to drink too. . Er I mean you can learn a lot there if you're not hung over.....

I wanted to add too that although the physics of acoustics and electrics is the same... they are different animals often in how they are used and played. I can see how someone who did or does mostly electrics would consider the nut slots as more of an after thought and not the core and heart of a great set-up.

Lastly what I do is not my method. It's done by countless pros in the trade who do a high volume of production and not just an occasional set-up. For what we charge I have to be able to move through the set-up with predictable results and then call it great and..... next. This makes it helpful to have sequential steps that I do as I approach and then set-up a guitar.

I have the utmost respect for Chris. When I was still a corporate puke with a Coach brief case Chris was making the shredders shred with reckless abandon. He's one of the guys, most of the pros in the trenches in the past are the guys (meaning men and women) who I respect greatly and my hat is off to.

Of course we develop different methods in our often solitary pursuit of significant economic gain through Lutherie excellence. Seriously though even Dave Collins and I do some things differently these days and once in a while, once in a very long while he may like what I do differently from him.

So no worries.

The fear is unfounded. Since we take action completely out of play by fretting and holding between the 2nd and 3rd you cannot take a nut slot too low without losing the clearance over the fist and knowing in advance that we cut the slot too low.

With what I am describing I never have to return to the nut slots. Once they are done I do the action, check every note on the fret board for buzz free with moderate attack and then I do the intonation. Then it's bill the client, call them to come get it and grab another one. Next!

YES!!! Thanks Tim!!!

It's just 1st fret position divided by 12th fret position. For example with 25.4" scale, 1st fret is 1.426", 12th fret is 12.700", so 1.426 / 12.700 = 0.112...
The same proportion is true for any scale length. So assuming a linear increase in action as you move away from the nut, 1st will be 11.2% of 12th.

In reality it will be a tiny bit higher due to the nut height not being precisely zero inches above the fret plane, and neck relief making the fret plane a slightly curved line. But close enough.

Geometry does not lie! Adjusting either end a certain amount will have one half the affect at the mid point!!!

How a simple question about plane geometry ever got pushed out this far.... here of all places..... That really baffles me!

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

It's probably my fault. I just thought that one should not worry about nut adjustments affecting the action. Sort of the tail wagging the dog. I adjust the nut irrespective of the action and get it as low as possible. Then I set the saddle for proper action. Then I got blasted. But this has been a useful discussion anyways. Sorry for stirring the pot.

I do it like Hesh and set my nut height independent from the saddle adjustment by observing the clearance on the first fret while fretting the third fret. That measurement is totally independent of the saddle height. I do not measure it I use my eyes and ears as one can tap the second fret position and hear the measurement.

I was also taught to set the nut slot using feeler gauges on an unfretted string. That method is sensitive to the saddle height so the saddle should be close. But also when adjust the saddle action first the nut slots should also be close to correct. Adjusting the nut does change the action height by half of the adjustment.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Ed, the 0.0005" clearance over the first fret on the high E is when the string is fretted just past the 2nd fret (between frets 2 & 3). The clearance will be greater when the string is unfretted. I learned the method from Dave and Hesh at Ann Arbor in one of their setup classes. I have used it on dozens of guitars since and have a loyal client base of pros and serious amateurs so it does work well.

In my thinking, this method allows you to set the height of the nut very, very close to the height of a fret (a hypothetical zero fret?) which, if you think about it, is what you want. It doesn't matter where the saddle is set any more than it matters on one of the frets. In other words, you don't relevel the frets when you change the action at the saddle so if you can make the nut look like just another fret it will be as low as it can go and you don't need to mess with it any further. And no need to worry about the nut while you tweak the action at the saddle.

As was said in an earlier post it is all just geometry and clearances; it really doesn't matter how you how you get there as long as you get there and it works for you and your clients.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Sorry. I can't believe what I'm reading here.
George L perfect!
The bottom of the strings should plane in with the top of the frets.
Done deal.
Shut up.
I can't read through the lengthy posts here.
There is no question.
Alan

I can't stop laughing!

I understand that I was misapprehending what Hesh said about the .0005" at first fret.

My takeaway from this is that there is enough space in the 11.2% action height at the first fret, with the nut slots cut on or very near the fret plane, to accommodate the decrease in space that will occur between the string and the fret top as you lower the action at the 12th fret if you finalize the nut slots first.

Fair summary?

Very fair!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Steve really made it clear in my mind when he pointed out that you don’t need to lower subsiquent frets when you lower the saddle. If the nut were set as high as a zero fret, or you always played with a capo on the first fret, you would not go back and change anything after you lowered the saddle.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

The only time the bottom of the strings at the nut is not level with the top of the frets,
is when the guitar is set up for a bottleneck, which would be higher.
Come on, think about it.
One would not raise the action at the nut, on a regular player,

because when fretted at first fret,
it would be "sharp", right?
If you lowered it below the top of the frets,
it would buzz.
So what's the buzz here?
Alan

Sorry Alan but you're incorrect. What you describe is not how properly cut nut slots are cut individually, one at a time and at various heights.

I have a tool that can measure nut slot depth in respect to the level set of the first three frets. It is entirely possible to cut a nut slot below the plane of the other frets and not have the slot be too low. In fact every nut slot that I cut for the high e and b are below the plane of the fret board other frets.

Zero frets are at times, not always equal with the first fret or the zero fret at the same height of the other frets. When I do my measurements that's too high on some stings for me and does indeed as you mention make fretted notes sharp when the player has to press further and harder than necessary. That's the primary motivation for well cut nut slots, ease of playing and reducing and minimizing intonation issues.

Why is it possible and desirable at times to cut a nut slot lower than the level set of the rest of the frets? Because strings on steel strings (classical too to a lesser degree) arc over the slot face and then start their journey down the fret board higher than the slot they just came out of. Bass guitars are an exaggerated example of this since the strings are stiffer and fatter. This arc depending on the string stiffness, maker and diameter as well as the tuning and how much tension will have a varying degree of arc from other strings. So we individually address each string for optional playability (very low...) refining things until the instrument plays like butter and intonation issues are minimized below the threshold that might be noticeable.

Or in other words the zero fret cut equal with the rest of the fret plane height is OK but not good enough and can be improved upon bu individually well cut nut slots.

Thanks for this explanation. I had a good fingerstyle steel string player teach me to lower the E and B string farther than what I had been doing. I never quite understood why this worked when I drew it out. After deepening the slots, when fretting between the second and third fret I could still see a very small gap. I could also see that I cut below the zero fret line.

The first fret is special being so close to the strings mechanical termination, (essentially the nut on pegheads with big angular breaks from the nut to the tuning peg). Anything that can be done to make it easier to fret there really matters. I played around using a zero fret and found the action at the nut too high on the treble strings. I have heard the argument that a zero fret is just like playing with a capo on the first fret, but that ignores that as you capo up the neck the string on the far side of the capo is farther from the string termination. Capoing the first fret nearly doubles the length. So easier to mechanically push down.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Thank you, Hesh, that does make sense.
On the fretted instruments I've made, the way I do it is scribe a line on the nut with a straightedge,
top of the frets,
slot to the line, a bit higher, assemble strings with bridge, (duh),
then individually bring each string down until it's where it belongs, doesn't buzz, and isn't too high.
So, the string curve is dealt with in the final setup automatically.
Make sense?
The OP was asking about height at 12th fret, which doesn't make sense to me,
so there really isn't an equation, IMO.
Alan

Exactly!! We have everyone try out their guitar in front of us when they pick it up and this is around five guitars or so daily so we do a lot of this. A common thing that our clients do is a F bar chord because it's a difficult chord to have all the notes ring well if the nut slots are at all high.

Anyway long story short a GREAT set-up will permit your customers or whomever to do things with a guitar that were more difficult for them prior. Or, in other words this is what makes the set-up much more important than most things that builders tend to stress out over such as the look of the rosette because that great set-up can help your people achieve their musical goals. That's pretty important to us and that's also real value and that why we are all over it.