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I’m just looking for a new flavour. I have some Italian/Alpine spruce that is very nice, and also ‘different’ enough than other woods to be noticeable but it’s all parlour sized...

If I recall the discussions here correctly, it's all Picea abies (Picea excelsa has been folded into the P. abies designation for a while now), or what we call Norway spruce in the US and Canada, but with a number of trade names (e.g., Alpine spruce, silver spruce, German spruce, Italian spruce, Carpathian spruce, etc.) and common/local names (e.g., red spruce) throughout the P. abies range.

Looking through old threads here and elsewhere, it seems like the most likely culprit for popularization of the term and associated myths has been the European vendors themselves, although the late Mr. DeCosta certainly contributed to the fun with his aggressive marketing and fanciful nomenclatura re: Lutz and other Pacific Northwest natives. Mr. Somogyi may also have had a hand in the festivities for all I know, but these days, the smaller factory builders scrambling for market share - Santa Cruz, Breedlove, and several others - seem happy to borrow the hype to boost sales.

In the sense of the business of logging, it seems to me as though harvesting spruce at a time when the moisture content is lower in the tree (and micro-climate?) makes sense with regard to bringing the wood to market sooner. That the tree is carefully chosen and milled for maximum yield of premium tonewood seems more like a smart business practice than some quasi-religious devotion to ancient maxims concerning the most propitious hour and day to "...release the tree's spirit into the Cosmic Oneness."

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Ed, You posed an interesting question as the thread starter. There was a fair amount of snark in some replies, although not by you.
I try to avoid confirmational bias regarding a question either pro or con. There is a lot of the workings of the natural world that we humans do not understand. So who am I to say the moon does not affect trees?
As Jim said, there is a fair amount of variability in Florinett's offerings as can be expected from a natural material. Obviously the best way to buy wood from them (or any supplier) would be to go to their yard and pick the wood out yourself. I haven't been able to justify that adventure so I have to rely on them picking out the wood for me.
I can report that Florinett's wood has consistently been the best Euro I have been able to buy. It would be impossible to tell whether a given piece of spruce benefited from moon phase harvesting since, as you know, each piece is different. The only downside from buying wood from Florinett is the cost of shipping and the phytosanitary certificate.

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Stay with the happy people.
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Well, there may be something to the tradition, but then again, maybe not. When was the last time you heard of somebody bleeding themselves to cure a head cold?

Aht the mhomhent I mahy consider thhat....

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I saw a funny thing on the internet today...

'Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people'...

TRein, tell us about the phytosanitary certificate? Never heard of that, but I've never ordered from Norway either...

'How dare you move my picea abies Ms. Hudson!'

'I do dare, Mr. Holmes, I do!'

Florinett is in Switzerland. A phytosanitary certificate is issued by an inspector stating that there are no bugs, etc in the shipment. The first time I ordered from Florinett it was not required but the last time it was. I'm not sure if it is solely a Swiss thing or even just a Florinett thing. I can see the purpose. Not shipping invasive species all over the globe. We've had enough of that already with the zebra mussel and Dutch elm disease. It wasn't super expensive but did add to the cost of shipping. Probably the best bet is to order as many tops as you can afford to spread the ancillary costs out over more pieces.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Thanks!

I have some Moon Spruce split brace stock I'd be glad to sell! I tried it, it was nice wood, but I prefer Lutz for all my top braces. I did build a couple of guitars with it, and they were fine, but I couldn't tell any real difference.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Strikes me that, since it takes a long time for a piece of wood to dry once it is cut, that it would take a long time for the environment to have an effect on the still-standing tree. So the monthly effects the moon would have a hard time changing anything inside the tree. And even if there were small changes they would lag behind the cause, much like the seasons on earth lag about 6 weeks behind the equinoxes and solstices because of the insulative value of the soil.

I am skeptical

Ed

I've been very skeptical about this whole thing since I first heard of it some years ago. Aside from having a basic problem seeing how the phase of the moon would have an effect on the physical properties of wood, I've always been bothered by the dearth of information on the topic on the web. Most of the limited information I've been able to find is vague and comes from websites with a vested interest in having people buy into the idea of moon spruce as a superior wood or from forums in which the discussions are no more than speculation. It's also hard to find scientific papers on the topic of effects of the lunar cycle on wood properties which indicates that there's not much actual data out there to provide a factual basis for the concept of moon spruce. I've also been bothered by lack of a standard clear definition of what constitutes "moon spruce" with respect to musical instruments. The descriptions I've seen are squishy, vague, and imprecise which doesn't inspire much confidence.

I did some deeper digging today and found two papers that provide at least a limited basis for thinking that the position of the moon relative to the Earth and sun during the lunar cycle may have some physical effect on the water content of the heartwood and sapwood of trees. Whether the magnitude of the effect is enough to matter in wood that's harvested and processed into top sets for guitars and consistently produce a perceivable positive effect on guitar tone is a separate question and I remain skeptical.

I suspect that Florinett is simply good at selecting trees and selecting wood processed from those trees regardless of what the phase of the moon was when the trees were felled and that "moon spruce" is just a marketing strategy that appeals to the perception that if something is traditional, it has to be good. I imagine they produce high quality wood, but is it actually consistently better guitar top material than high quality spruce tops from other sources? If it is, does it have anything to do with the phase of the moon? I doubt it. I also suspect (without evidence) that the natural variation in physical properties caused by non-moon related environmental factors, between trees and even within individual trees in the forest they harvest from, would swamp out any differences that might be attributable to the phase of the moon.

For your weekend reading enjoyment:
https://www.howplantswork.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/zurcher.pdf
and
http://www.holz100canada.com/uploads/9/5/8/7/95874198/felling-date-and-wood-properties_2010.pdf

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Reminds me of biodynamic farming, planting with phases of the moon, burying cow horns at midnight and stirring crazy brews. Hard to get behind that sort of lunacy but biodynamic farms tend to be the most healthy and productive places. I think all the extra time and consideration taken results in some gain for whatever reason. So if someone is taking the time to consider the phase of the moon when cutting spruce it might be more likely they are taking extra care with other considerations too and therefore potentially producing a superior top.

"I’m just looking for a new flavour. I have some Italian/Alpine spruce that is very nice, and also ‘different’ enough than other woods to be noticeable but it’s all parlour sized..."

Hi Ed,
You could glue wings on the parlor sized stuff to make larger tops. If you can't get it out of the waist area you could make two tops out of three, assuming they have similar grain and runout.

If you take what Alan Carruth wrote about stiffness tracking with density and all spruces being about the same as gospel, then as long as you can find a piece of spruce with the density/stiffness you want it doesn't matter the particular species, and "Moon spruce" suppliers are just pandering to the lunatic fringe.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with Alan in this regard, strictly in how it affects my process. But then I don't 'control' for density, but rather 'account for and manipulate with' density. I find there is a distinct difference in the tone and responsiveness in my guitars with different species of spruce that very much aligns with the generic differences assigned to the different species of spruce.

If you plot out a graph of density vs Young's modulus (E) along the grain for different samples of softwoods, you'll find they all tend to fall on the same line, with about 60% of them being within 10% of the E value you'd predict based on the density. So far every softwood I've tested follows the same rule, including things like White pine and Douglas fir. Cedar and redwood are different from spruce in normally having lower damping. The main variable in cross grain Young's modulus seems to be how well quartered the piece is. There is a huge amount of overlap between species. When I say 'control for density' I mean 'pick pieces that are similar' in that respect: it's a common usage. Whether you actually do that or not is up to you.

what I do is to choose density within a species with intent to use it as a tool to affect timbre. So I'll sort/categorize tops by density and use accordingly. Or, modify process to account for it. But I do find distinct differences in timbre and response between species. So to me a .4 Sitka and a .4 lutz will behave differently.

Again, I've made pairs of guitars where the tops were cut 'in flitch', and had measurable properties, E along and across the grain, density and damping factors, that were all well within measurement error. The tops were thicknessed the same as close as possible, weighed the same, and had Chladni patterns that matched very closely in terms of frequency and shape with 'the same' bracing. On the latest pair the impulse spectra below 1000 Hz were virtually identical. They still sounded different in blind tests. It may well be impossible to make 'identical' guitars with 'the same' wood and have them sound the same. Under the circumstances, then, when you use different species of top wood, but keep everything else the same, are the differences in tone large enough to be confidently attributable to the difference in species?

Like Ed, I have also experienced a different sound quality when using Sitka or Engelmann spruce. I use less than scientific methods when building instruments so it may be more attributable to the way I work the wood than the wood itself. And although Sitka seems fairly consistent, Engelmann seems to vary a fair amount.

You have quantified with your own ear that torrified can have a different and appealing tone. Greenfield has quantified the use of moon wood with a couple K upsell. It's all about perspective and perception. Do you want it to sound worth the price??? If you answer yes then heck ya it has the value in it!!!

I don't think anyone is talking about making identical sounding guitars. I'm not anyway.

However, I do feel at least in the way I work, that the generic tonal properties attributed to various species generally hold true. Of course there is overlap as Alan mentioned, but in the general sense they hold. Which is a good thing IMO, otherwise what would be the point of choosing different woods if they all sound the same anyway?

Danny, do you not find torrefied tops to be distinctly different than non torrefied?

I have been guilty of being in the woods with a girlfriend and "Moonin Spruce" once or twice ! Reckon that counts ?

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I bet that Spruce was torrefied, Wud.

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_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

More like petrified!

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.