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Thanks Pat

What's a PLEK mate?

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Mike

Do you mean dome on the top from the soundhole to the neck joint? If so that bit is definitely flat as that's one of the things I did make sure of, just wish I had been more thorough with the neck set etc #neverbuilding2atatimeagain

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To determine if the neck is set correctly without the fingerboard extension in the way, you can set your straight edge on 3 identical thickness spacers (feeler gauges for example). One on the first fret, one on the body join fret, and one on the bridge.

Before removing material somewhere I'd make sure I knew if the problem was the neck angle (1st-12th projected to the bridge) or a rising fingerboard on an otherwise correct neck angle.

Thanks David great idea

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A PLEK is a machine invented by idiots who believed that skilled people with years of experience were no longer needed.
SUBMIT TO YOUR ELECTRONIC OVERLORD!

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

A PLEK is a computer controlled machine designed specifically for doing primarily fret work on a guitar. It can also cut saddle and nut slots, radius fret boards and many other tasks. If you are interested, take a look here: http://www.plek.com They are very impressive but expensive machines. Since there happens to be one close to where I live, owned and operated by a friend, it really is the solution I would use for your challenge since it would be by far the easiest (at least for my friend who has become an expert at operating the machine).

The route you should take is an interesting question and depends on how severe the problem. If you do a re-set the neck angle is going to change (to the correct one by the way) and, as a minimum, I think you will need a new, taller saddle. If the problem is severe, there will be too much saddle clear of the bridge and you will have to build a taller bridge to replace the current one. This is assuming that you made the bridge height based on the neck angle created by up to the first 14 frets. If you based the bridge height by extending a straight edge along the whole neck, perhaps you got lucky and the rise of the fret board extension cancelled the too shallow neck angle and your bridge still came out at a good height.

If you elect to shave down the fret board extension, you will probably have to find a way to deepen some of the fret slots that became too shallow and, perhaps, replace your last inlay dot. Perhaps, as has been suggested, the easiest thing would be to take off the neck and shave off the under side of the fret board extension.

One thing you can do to see which way you should go is lay a straight edge along frets 14 and higher and extend it out to the bridge. If it just clears the bridge then that would be a good indication that your bridge will still be tall enough after doing a neck re-set if you don't over-do the re-set. If the bridge is tall enough, for what it's worth, a neck re-set is the way I would go since that would get the guitar all to where it was supposed to be. If re-setting the neck meant also doing a new bridge, I would probably still do it but I'd have to think about it more to get past being pissed off at myself.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

If the UTB is radiused, rather than flat, so that the top is domed all the way up, you could well end up with the ski jump when the neck angle is otherwise correct. Normally one would fit the underside of the fretboard extension to the top to correct this, either by removing a wedge of wood from the fingerboard and fitting it, or adding a wedge and fitting that, with some 'overstand' of the neck at the body edge as is done on fiddles. The problem with thinning out the end of the fingerboard extension to fit is that it can end up pretty thin. Adding a wedge gets around that, but some folks think of it as a kludge: a cheap fix of a mistake. OTOH, Tom Humphrey made his reputation in the Classical guitar world more or less that way. I've had to defend my use of a wedge several times on these lists...

If the neck is glued in puling frets to level the extension might be the best option. Flush cutting end nippers can be used to pull them up with minimal damage. The jaws of the tool press the wood down on either side as you lift the fret, helping to minimize chips. If you glued in the frets you'll need to heat them to soften the glue: Frank Ford's trick of applying a bead of low temperature solder to the top of the fret to heat it works well, as the latent heat of the solder as it solidifies warms them up nicely. You do, of course, lose the frets

Firstly you need to establish accurately what your neck angle is, determined by the projection of the straightened neck from nut to body join out to the bridge area.

The ideal is to have a 1/2" string height off the soundboard from bottom of d or g string. This means you bridge should be around 3/8" height with a 1/8 saddle or thereabouts.

If, in fact, your neck is indeed set too far back, bringing the neck angle forward will actually increase the ski jump.

Usually you encounter a ski jump on a guitar with the neck set too forward.

So we really need to know exactly what your neck angle is before we can determine what the exact problem is, let alone the solution...

I believe that Gibson uses Plek machines. Say no more. Another instance of someone devising an expensive tool to solve a problem that doesn't exist, yet not even meeting their objectives.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Martin also uses Plek machines. From what my friend tells me, and he has put many hundreds of guitars through his machine, they work very well indeed.

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Hi all, happy new year!!

I have had a look at the problem again and used coins and a straight edge to lift it clear of the fretboard extension, the neck is set so the straight edge lands a tad over 1mm (0.03) over a coin on the bridge, so to me that's exactly the angle I tend to go for.

So keeping the straight edge on the coins and measuring from the fret to the bottom of the straight edge I have a lift(ski ramp?) of 0.5mm(0.015) from the 14th to the last fret. Looking at the frets, the extension frets got sanded down alot when I was levelling, I should of payed more attention to it then really. So I can't gain anything by sanding them down.
Am I looking at removing frets and sanding the extension? And would it look okay?
I'm open to your suggestions to overcome this
Many thanks

Ps sorry pics aren't great it's hard to hold camera and all the stuff

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Hey CP is the truss rod adjusted so that the neck is super straight before doing the check? If not this is imperative to do because if there is any relief in the neck or back bow it skews the results dramatically.

To adjust the neck flat even if there is a ski ramp place coins on the 1st, 7th and 14th frets and adjust the truss rod so that the straight edge is in contact with all three coins. We are only flattening the neck from the 1st through the 14th, don't worry about any ski ramp for now.

Once the neck is adjusted straight and checked for same a coin on the 1st and 14th and the bridge as you already did will work. I'm looking for the straight edge to be over the bridge coin by the approx. height of the frets for a decent neck angle AND with an adjusted straight neck.

What you saw and are reporting is fine, .03 over the bridge coin provided that you straightened the neck with the three coins first and provided that the frets are typical for say a Martin acoustic, .037 - .043 high.

Simply adding a coin at the 7th and adjusting for contact with the coins on the 1st, 7th and 14th will make your results more meaningful.

Also what is the height of the bridge at it's face between the D and G strings please?

setting a neck is about the details

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNcbA1P95KE&t=56s

regardless of dovetail or bolt on , it is all about the prep for the joint of the fret board on the neck and over the body you can't rush these and take lots or measurements. As you see I do not rely on hand pressure I use a clamp and same with a bolt on I will see that the bolts are as tight as they need to be to get true measurements.

best to you.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Rather than spend all that time pulling, leveling, and refretting the extension, consider the Otis Taylor solution from SCGC. We've worked on Mr. Taylor's East Coast guitars from time to time, and he truly does not seem to miss those higher position frets over the body! It must be nice to have a set of instruments just for East Coast tours!,

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Thanks woodie definitely worth considering, it looks quite cool

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Thanks for the info, I definitely rushed and dropped the ball with this one.

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Thanks Hesh for detailed info. I will try the three coins when I get home later and report back on the neck situation

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to those that think Plecking would solve this , it won't. Pleck is a fret leveling program. If the geometry is missed there is not much you can do but to pull the neck and reset. In the long run it is the best advice.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Did you dome the upper transverse bar? And, what radius did you use for the top?

Hi Mike, no the upper transverse bar is flat and the area under the fb extension is completely flat

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Hi Hesh,

So I have tried the three coins and also a shorter straight edge from fret 1-14 and the neck is definitely straight to that point. I noticed that I must of built a slight bow into the neck somehow during the build as I had to turn the truss rod the opposite way to get it straight, don't remember if I did this before levelling the frets which maybe another mistake.
There is definitely a slope up from the 14th to 21st frets.

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In the small world department:
Many moons ago, Otis Taylor actually made a brief foray into managing a national caliber cycling team. I rode for him when I was just a greasy teenager. This year he was passing though and stopped by to say hi. One old man to another! Here he is in my shop, playing the first guitar I ever built (a redwood Classical)



Sorry for the detour hijack. Now back to regularly scheduled programming.

I was about to throw a cheap digital gauge in the trash but instead took it to the band saw and then bolted it to a steel straight edge (ignore the notches they have nothing to do with it). I stuck on a pair of small equally sized magnets and now, by sliding them anywhere, I can get measurements for any three points on any scale instrument quickly. The magnets hop the straight edge over the nut, ski jump, or errant frets in between points. It can sit on the board too.
It's especially useful for determining if a correction can be made with a fret dress. It makes it easier to determine how much fret would be left (if any!) or if a re-fret is necessary.

Great tool Dave It would be alot more accurate that my 3 coin trick

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Then I agree with others that you did not get enough neck angle.

Thanks Mike, I have checked the angle by floating above the extension and it looks good, but maybe I could have had more of an angle with a taller made bridge?

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