Official Luthiers Forum!

Since the dawn of the OLF every year or so the topic of the value offered and received by the organizations servicing the Lutherie industry comes up. It's often the case that someone building a few guitars perhaps ever takes issue with pricing or perceived value received from some of our suppliers.

And every time this happens lots of folks weigh-in being sure to address at least several perspectives. One common perspective is that for pros working in the trade the common theme is that we are fortunate to have anyone.... supplying our volatile industry which is completely dependent on the disposable income of our clients AND the state of the economy.

Another perspective is the hobbyist who may find a price of X to be too steep a price for the intended, limited use of a product, tool, service, etc.

And lastly there also seems to be what I would call the grumpy.... perspective with no intended reference to our friend Grumpy but every reference to someone who seems overly negative most if not all of the time..... at least on this forum.

I'm 60 and have had a hard life with many surgeries and months of my life spent in hospitals (not mental ones....). Stuff hurts on me every day, lots of stuff..... I'm reminded of a Leonard Cohen line "I ache in the places that I used to play..." and can completely relate. To be even more specific I'm currently growing a couple of kidney stones waiting for them to get big enough to be blasted with sound waves (I prefer the Rolling Stones with no pun intended..) possibly preventing another hospitalization for me. These will be kidney stone numbers 15 and beyond.

Point being if my health was a justification to be reckless with my hurtful opinions on-line it very well may be that I have some license here.

But that's not how I roll.... Instead I tend to be annoyingly positive.... in my ill fated attempts to be positive and funny. As such I personally don't feel as if any of us have any excuse to tear our vendors and sponsors a new one... because our lives suck.

Deal with it.

Now back to the second reason why at times a vendor gets unfairly trashed here. Hobbyists may not be able to justify the price of something or how often they may use it because, well.... they are hobbyists and not intending to make Lutherie their life's work. We all get this or should.

If you can't justify something don't buy it but please consider that you are not everyone and some of us are happy to pay $90 for a reamer that we WILL use hundreds of times for years to come more than paying for the tool over and over again. This is again the conflict that our suppliers have attempting to service what perhaps should be considered two very different sets of clients, and of course the grumpy ones too....

Anyway I think that we can do better and more importantly to me I think that we should do better. This time when it happened there were a lot of forum members who took the perspective that flaming sponsors and vendors is not only against the Code Of Conduct here but simply uncalled for and uncool. That was great to see and makes me feel like maybe someday I can rest assured that someone else will represent the point of view..... that..... in respect to our sponsors and suppliers..... we are lucky to have them!

Lastly this is NOT at all directed at the OP of the thread in question, he raised legitimate questions about something that was obviously questionable until a discussion filled in some blanks as to value, quality and again.... not all things offered by these suppliers are intended for hobbyists but may be targeted at pros and even guitar f*ctories.

Thanks, I'll go be grumpy off line now.....

And...... Happy Holidays to our US members and a great weekend to everyone else!

Price may not always reflect quality but in most cases up to a certain point it does. I'm involved in too many hobbies really but a couple of them are mountain climbing (not anymore but in the past) and bicycle racing. Both involve pretty specialized gear and equipment of which companies produce a varied set of quality items. In bike racing it almost blows the adage that price increase equals quality away, at a certain point it doesn't. At that point the comparison, for example, in rear derailleurs in quality is basically the same but because derailleur X is made of carbon fiber and weighs 4 grammes less it is going to cost 200 more dollars. But on the other hand back around 1995 when I was climbing big mountains but had no money I scoffed at the price of this fine Marmot jacket at over $400! I bought it anyway and today almost 25 years later I STILL have that jacket and it's still fully functional.

Point is higher quality tools that cost more due to the nature of their high quality are actually cheaper in the long run, almost always and almost always in most industries.

I agree that the folks on this forum should try to:

1. Be respectful of our sponsors, even if we are going to state a viewpoint that is something other than high praise.
2. Be mindful of the fact that value is in the eye of the beholder, and viewpoints vary (hobbyist vs. professional, etc.).
3. Do business with our sponsors when it makes sense to do so, which is pretty often.

On the other hand, I would not want to completely squelch comments about a sponsor, just because those comments are something other than high praise. Not every product a sponsor sells is wonderful, and not every wonderful product is priced well compared to the competition, or other alternatives. As long as the viewpoints are expressed in a respectful manner, I think there should be room for viewpoints that express criticism of a sponsor, or a particular product, or the pricing of that product.

So, yep, let's all try to exercise some restraint before we say bad things about a sponsor. I will often write a "nastigram" one day, but not send it that day, and come back to it the next day. Most of the time, I either don't send it or send a more restrained version of it. Maybe that is a good approach in circumstances where folks on the OLF are considering the posting of a negative comment about a sponsor.

I am not a professional. Meaning I don’t rely on lutherie as a source of income. I’m not into production, just maybe one or two at a time just because I really enjoy the craft. That being said, I have found that many times I can find a way to accomplish what I need without buying some of the high priced tools and jigs from the luthier suppliers. I have made my own side bender, bending forms, molds, assorted jigs, and other things. However, there have been some things that I considered worth the cost to either make a job easier or to ensure that my instruments are of high quality. I am really glad that LMI and Stew Mac are around as a source for everything lutherie. I have done my part in supporting their businesses. But, I have found I don’t need every jig or tool they come up with (which they are good at …and I’m glad they are…). For those making a living at this, Hesh is right; the cost diminishes with continued use.

I do want to say also that I have found customer service to be really good. On more than one occasion I have contacted Stew Mac regarding an item that didn't perform or wore out prematurely and they have immediately sent out a replacement at no cost without requiring returning the item. I think LMI would do the same... That kind of customer service (to me) justifies perhaps somewhat higher prices...

..Just thought I’d weigh in…

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I have to respectfully disagree with my friend Hesh. I've read through the thread in question, and saw no "trashing" of a vendor. If anything there was a personal attack on the OP implying he had mental or emotional issues if he questioned the price of an item.

The meat of the discussion was about whether the price of a tool was justified. Some offered justifications, and some pushed back on those justifications. Some gave personal experiences with the tool, some offered experience with cheaper alternatives.

I counted only two post speaking negatively about the vendor without reference to the tool in question. By contrast, there were four times that number defending the vendor without reference to the tool in question.

I am very hesitant to post this comment. Obviously there are high emotions involved I don't fully understand. Perhaps a history from years ago on this forum? But I believe a normal part of a discussion board like this is to discuss the price of tools and services from major vendors. I worry that a mistaken impression will be left that criticism of sponsor is not allowed or that the experiences of hobbyists and part-time professionals are not welcome.

One last comment for Hesh: I think you have identified the source of your recent poor health. It is a well know fact that the good die young, and mean old bastards live forever. I am blessed with reasonably good health, and I meditate on a single mantra: Bah-Humbug!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I do see a couple of posts that are indeed trashing a supplier one of which appears to be a total mis understanding -- I think most would agree these should be removed. On the other hand I see no problem with an honest, respectful review when the item/s have actually been used by the reviewer --- feedback is one of the key features of internet sales.

My main concern with a thread like this is the potential of discouraging new comers who simply do not have the resources to buy the very best. I constructed my original tools, fixtures and guitar with mostly common hand tools and I can assure that it was great fun.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

My friend I appreciate your point of view and hope that you never, never feel any need to be restrained with what's on your mind around me. We've been in contact at times (PM's) and I hope that you consider me a friend. That's how I consider you.

Here is what I am referring to. This poster not only posted once with negativity but came back and did it again.

In the second post he's bringing up a change of hands of LMI, sale of the company that happened over a decade ago..... and still hating these people over his perception that he was "ripped off...." That's a very long time to hold a grudge and what an unfair welcoming to the new principals who have bent over backwards for many of us time and time again.

It's not unlike punishing me for something my father did..... and wars have been fought over less. It's also a violation of the Code of Conduct bringing a dispute with a vendor to the forum and airing it.

I'm not at all speaking of suppressing anyone's right to have an honest opinion about their perception of the value received from a vendor. Instead this is a grudge that spans over a decade in time and is being unfairly thrust upon a new set of principals of an organization. It's also questionable in my view that anyone with this much hate in them may not be suffering from perception problems as well.

I will also bring up the idea that deals in BRW have for a very long time including back in the time frame of LMI's previous ownership had compliance issues as well with endangered species treaties and US regulations. I've been a Luthier for 12 years now and when I started we all knew that BRW deals were risky, possibly not legal.... and subject to enforcement issues if things went south. It was also VERY difficult to find the stuff 12 years ago......

Anyway this is what I speak of and as someone who is very aware how unfair it can be to flame someone on the Internet for personal, questionable.... reasons I can't let it go. Some of our vendors here on the OLF are also friends and deserve to be defended when slighted....

The OLF is not the place for this kind of vengeance attack and it brings our spirit of positive sharing down casting doubt of why some of us are here.

The following two posts that I am going to quote did not need to be shared AND I see them as violating the Code of Conduct.

POST 1:

"I'm surprised that anyone is shocked at LMII's high prices, they've been doing this for years and generally their quality is below competitors."

POST 2:

"I had a machinist friend make me some stiffeners for my slotting blades. He charged me $10 and said it took him no more than a few minutes.

re: Lmii
They ripped me off big time a number of years ago on a Brazilian RW buy. I put up $2000 for 50 sets of RW and received 10 sets of garbage (not Brazilian). They gave me "credit" for the rest of the money. I didn't want "credit", I wanted Brazilian RW! I now occasionally buy from them since they are under new management but find it really hard to forgive this kind of behavior. It's nothing new since I've been cheated by lots of vendors over the years."

no one wins a pissing contest .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It's not about pissing.... it's about ethics, friendship, honesty and honor...... with a smattering of forum rules as well.

Thanks for your comment.

I'm very lucky in that I'm able to value my time more than my money. So I greatly appreciate Stewmac, LMI and all of our suppliers and sponsors.

Do they occasionally make a mistake or mis-price something? Of course they do. But I've never had anything but top notch service from any of them.

Are products sometimes pricey? Yep. But I don't think any of these folks started serving this community with the goal of getting wealthy.

Geez, at least I hope not

Steve

And btw Hesh, sorry to hear about the kidney stones. That sucks.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm waiting for cataract surgery. Can't build, can't drive, and worst of all can't read. The only thing saving my sorry butt at the moment is the ability of the iPad to reverse type so that it reads white on black.

That, and being able to blow things like this up to about 24 pt type

Woe is us, huh?

Tell you what. You get better soon and so will I. Deal?

Steve

My sympathies on the kidney stones Hesh, I've had three, and would not wish them on my worst enemy.
As to the pricing of sponsors, I'm just glad I can get quality when I need it.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Apparently it's not permitted on this forum to say anything negative about Hesh's favorite vendors. I could name a bunch of vendors that I'm perfectly happy with and deal with without hesitation (Stewmac for instance). I've been building and repairing guitars since Hesh was about 10 years old and am neither grumpy nor interested in attacking anyone. I related my own experiences, if that's too much to endure so be it.

Yes, and although I appreciate fine tools, and have bought great luthier tools my production rate doesn't justify, I don't see anything wrong with an amateur writing in and saying "x" isn't worth the cost in his opinion.

We have the capability to see the perspective he is coming from and decide if it applies to us. I have read some of those posts, internally agree with them, and buy the tool anyway, because it is worth it to me.

I don't agree with shaming people from giving their honest opinions because I happen to think the vendor is great. It just doesn't alter my opinion of what I've received from that vendor, and for new vendors, I filter the comments to weight more heavily the ones that reflect the values important to me.
Mike

When i first started buying carving tools at woodwards in van bc in 1972. I bought a bunch of swiss carving chisels. I was pretty poor then, and thought the chisels were expensive but very good . I sold a few 2 yrs later when I needed some $$. I am still using some of those chisels today. When I see the cost of a tool I ask myself how much use and for how long. Sometimes it.s justified and sometimes it/s not. Some cheap tools are overpriced as they crap out quickly and your out the time , money and energy. I would not trash a supplier or vendor . Most work very hard. Been there done that !!

Man Steve if they put us both together you could pee for me and I could see for you....... You might be getting the worse part of the deal though..... .

You heard the one about the Bostonian who told his wife that he has cataracts and she told him that she preferred Lincoln Continentals.....

Sorry, that truly sucked....

Here's wishing some health for both of us my friend.

It's not why people come here. For over a decade folks have come to and even relied on the OLF for the often selfless... sharing of information, friendship, encouragement and at times even a little friendly human contact. Folks learned in time that you could ask a question and get all manner of honest responses including personal opinions on experiences with products, people...., services and yes even sponsors.

Coming here with a decade old grudge and pointing it out not once but twice serves no one but your "building and repairing guitars since Hesh was about 10 years old" self. And if the fact that peeing in the collective canteen for everyone does not bother you as it is currently very much bothering me.... knowing that I'm now doing it too.... it does bother me and I would like to avoid it.

So here's the deal follow the rules (Code of Conduct) regarding not bringing disputes with vendors here and I'll promise to not call you out for breaking the rules.

With all of your considerable experience perhaps consider sharing something that is what someone is asking for and helps them out.... once in a while? It really doesn't hurt at all.

Lastly I should add to be perfectly clear I'm not a moderator or owner of this sandbox. My opinions are my own and have no more weight than yours. As such my words to you are not addressing what's "permitted" but I am addressing what we, you and I agreed to when we signed up for the forum. We both were required to acknowledge acceptance of the Code of Conduct.

That's not what's happening and I'm surprised that you see it this way.

What is happening is I am personally and vocally objecting to Shelton bringing a dispute that is over a decade old, with a business that has changed hands nearly as long ago and in clear violation of the OLF Code of Conduct. I specifically said that I took no issue with the OP "original poster."

No need to beat around the bush, I posted the thread in question. I'm a part time builder with a lot of really nice tools that I've paid hansom prices for. Having read through both threads I still can't wrap my head around it. Never did I trash LMI, I simply questioned the justification of the price of an item whose function I need but am unable to currently afford given other needs around the shop as well as in life. In fact I simply completed my order without the stiffeners for now, maybe I'll spring for them later if the ones I just got in the mail don't satisfy me or someone manages to convince me otherwise. What I really needed was a slotting pin replacement for my neck slotting jig and a couple other odds and ends. I do like LMI and their service, I use our sponsors 90% of the time if I can. I know they are a small business and I should probably join the shipping program which may have kept my initial order price more reasonable. After seeing that the shipping was $9 for the pin I ordered some other stuff I needed to justify the shipping price, but not the stiffeners.

Having read all of the explanations and the item description on the website I still don't agree with the price (although I do understand the value). I also just ordered 2 Bosch laminate trimmers shipped for $140, $20 more than 2 pieces of highly accurately machined steel. That's probably why it seems so odd to me. I suppose that's the difference between an item manufactured in small batches vs mass production. If that's my problem as some have told me- so be it. It is my nature to question things. While I appreciate our sponsors, being a sponsor does not buy my blind allegiance leading me to throw caution to the wind and never question whether a price is fair or not. If I don't agree with a price I don't buy the item, that's that and it's hardly trashing a sponsor as some have claimed. Heck- I'm still an LMI customer for Pete sake!

You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.

You seem a little thin skinned for someone so outspoken, but.. regardless of what you are saying about the OP, which I wasn't even addressing, the thread IMHO seemed to be leaning on people who made negative comments about sponsors. That's my take. I'm entitled to it. I gave a very mild opinion of this thread and I stand by it.
Mike

Great you are correct you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine and mine disagrees with your perception of the issue here and does not appreciate the assertion that anyone is thin skinned. The same could be said of you..... If you have something personal to say to me perhaps respect the others and use a PM or better yet call me at my shop, the number is on our page. I would prefer the call, in fact I am looking forward to it..... Mike.....

The OLF is a community and more importantly there is a far larger and closer... community of Luthiers, not hobbyists but people who have honest concerns about the issues that impact us since we work in the trade. Flaming any Luthier who works in the trade can take food right off our tables. The OLF is all about helping others not self promotion at the expense of others.

Last night and this morning while some of you were digging in that it's OK to flame a sponsor over something that happened before they even owned the business................ I've been PMing two OLFers with neck angle and refret questions. Helping them out. A lot goes on in the background here and it could be said that the greatest value of the OLF as a community is that it's hooked-up many of us off line and we help each other sometimes frequently. We also ask for nothing in return but would appreciate a level of decorum here that does not risk our professional reputations.

Or in other words a hobbyist has nothing to lose flaming a pro Luthier but a pro Luthier has income to lose with nothing to gain helping the hobbyist...... That's fundamentally why many of my peers won't post here and it's been that way since the beginning.....

I'm still here to share much of what I can not to hurt someone's reputation over some BRW deal from 20 years ago and a fundamentally different business than what exists today. If I had thin skin Mike I would have been gone long ago. Instead I prefer the herpes model, I'm here for life......

It's been well explained to you, Mike that the OP was not included in my criticism. It's also been well explained that suppressing honest discussion is at least not my goal nor clearly has it been what I've written. Your inability to "hear" this is not going to be my problem.

Chuck Norris would.

When I have chosen to buy a seemingly overpriced more expensive tool, I don't think I have ever later regretted it. Still trying to afford one of your fancy saddle mills for the 2-3 saddles slots I'll do this year.

_________________
Mike Lindstrom

edited to remove my comment, because I read Mike's post too quickly and thought he was talking about the LMI tool which makes my post irrelevant,
Mike

Thanks Mike, so am I......

They came out more pricey than we had hoped. In making tools for Luthiers it's very difficult to get costs out when the lifetime market for something might be 10 units.......

But at least our mills are as accurate as Dave had engineered them to be and that level of accuracy can matter to some.

Ours has more than paid for itself with all the Martins from the early 70's that we relocate the saddles on when they were improperly located during production. If I ever build again I'm going to slot on the guitar, it's more accurate and pretty easy and very safe to do.