Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 7:21 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:41 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 985
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I’ve found that cutting nut slots, like sharpening, is a process where investing a little time to develop the chops to do it jig-free pays massive ongoing dividends in time saved.



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post: Hesh (Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:38 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:24 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 1041
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I just used mine last night to slot a new nut. I appreciated the stability of the stack of feeler gauges so that I could cut evenly down to a consistent level across all the strings.

I realize that a highly experienced person would regard the tool as yet another tool-in-search-of-a-problem device fromStew-Mac, but for me using it gave me an unambiguous picture of what I was doing. And just one slot needed touching up.

_________________
Peter Havriluk



These users thanked the author phavriluk for the post: Colin North (Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:35 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:48 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13386
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
phavriluk wrote:
I just used mine last night to slot a new nut. I appreciated the stability of the stack of feeler gauges so that I could cut evenly down to a consistent level across all the strings.

I realize that a highly experienced person would regard the tool as yet another tool-in-search-of-a-problem device fromStew-Mac, but for me using it gave me an unambiguous picture of what I was doing. And just one slot needed touching up.


Peter it's not a matter of an experienced, working in the trade person being critical it's very much a case of this tool does not do the job well and it instills beliefs in the users that are not even accurate.

For example you mentioned a consistent level across all strings. This is not desirable, every nut slot has independent requirements dictated by the string it supports, it's mass, stiffness, arc, pitch, etc.

Every one of the six slots I cut on a six string has a different depth and sometimes dramatically different.

On Floyds I have to estimate and shoot in the dark because a Floyd nut can't have the various slots independently cut. So as an example my high e might be .0005" high over the first fret crown and my low e may be .005" over the same first fret crown (this is when fretting between the 2nd and 3rd and holding). All the other strings have different nut slot depth settings too.

This is also the down side of a zero fret, one size does not fit all when it comes to great guitar set-ups and there are six nut slots (on a six string) for a reason, we have to opportunity to optimize each one independently.

Even instruments with "courses" of two strings such as mandolins because of how many winds may be on a string post the two slots may be different depths even if the strings are level to each other. Every slot is an independent job wanting to be addressed and optimized as such.

Not being critical of you Peter :) I don't at all agree with your suggestion that consistent nut slot depth may be a goal, it's not, each slot is different and has different requirements and should be approached as same.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Chris Pile (Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:47 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:40 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
I agree. Each string has a specific height in it's slot and they get progressively higher from high e to low E. Most players tend to bang on the open chords so I like to give a little more wiggle room on the bass strings. If they play with a light touch then they can go lower.

I remember years ago trying to use feeler gauges and for me it simply didn't work. The little SM tool is probably good to cut slots in a hurry to a point but then you would want to remove the tool and finish off by eye.

What I find works for me is that half pencil trick marking the line on the nut equal to the fret height. I can hurriedly cut the six slots to the line, and actually I go well below the line as experiences has shown me, then install the nut and finalize it under string tension.

A nut slot is perfect when one more file stroke would ruin it.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post (total 2): Chris Pile (Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:48 am) • Hesh (Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:07 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:06 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 1041
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I much appreciate the thoughtful and detailed responses to my comments. This is a tutorial I wasn't going to get anyplace else. Thanks for the thoughts and taking the time to express them.

_________________
Peter Havriluk



These users thanked the author phavriluk for the post: Hesh (Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:09 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:09 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13386
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
jfmckenna wrote:
I agree. Each string has a specific height in it's slot and they get progressively higher from high e to low E. Most players tend to bang on the open chords so I like to give a little more wiggle room on the bass strings. If they play with a light touch then they can go lower.

I remember years ago trying to use feeler gauges and for me it simply didn't work. The little SM tool is probably good to cut slots in a hurry to a point but then you would want to remove the tool and finish off by eye.

What I find works for me is that half pencil trick marking the line on the nut equal to the fret height. I can hurriedly cut the six slots to the line, and actually I go well below the line as experiences has shown me, then install the nut and finalize it under string tension.

A nut slot is perfect when one more file stroke would ruin it.


That's what I do too with the half pencil, very handy for hogging off the heavy lifting in the slots for sure. It's also a good illustration that a slot may end up below the line and still not be too low. This surprises people when they realize it for themselves that the strings may arc enough that a nut slot may be correct even if it's depth is below the level set of the frets.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): jfmckenna (Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:06 pm) • Chris Pile (Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:27 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:47 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5821
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I gotta weigh in here... For a newbie, it's a good tool to train yourself, get your skills together, and give you a reference. However, by the time you've made a hundred nuts you should be savvy enough to know what you're doing. Also - I do not set the strings at the same height across the fingerboard. The plain strings will be a bit lower as a general rule. If you do your slot shaping correctly from good bone, you won't have any binding in the slot, no settling of the material, enabling good intonation and an easy playing guitar.

After you've made thousands you won't even think about it - your actions while shaping will be automatic, a matter of repetition and experience. I have used the same 6" scale for setting action since the late 70's because it is a known value. My training as a tool & die maker taught me that precision with repeatability yields dependably superior results. It's an internal rigidity, so to speak. Develop it.

Learn to roll your wrist when cutting nut slots. I make the nut slot a bit wider on the backside to reduce friction on the string, paying attention to angling the string to the proper string post. You are working in multiple dimensions - side to side as well as down. No sharp angles, smooth radii will enable the string to slide through smoothly, with no sticking and not inducing any unwanted tensions. Yes, the string will arc in the nut. Don't fight it - plan for it, and use it. Experience will pay off.

Learn when to stop. Literally one more gentle stroke of the file can ruin your work. Besides, you can always take more if need be. We can take material off, we can't put it back on.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince



These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post (total 2): Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:08 am) • joshnothing (Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:14 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:12 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
I will just like to add one more thing. The best tool I ever bought from Stew Mac is their nut slot spacing rule. That was a game changer for speed and accuracy.

I have used the same 6in Starrett rule for about 25 years and recently bought the Stew Mac string height gauge tool (or what ever they call it). I find I end up just using the 32nd and 64th inch rule on it just like on my 6in rule so I'm not so sure about that one.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:08 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:51 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7376
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Ha, I also use just the 64th inch scale on the StewMac tool. I still find it a bit more convenient to use then my Starrett 6" ruler.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"



These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:09 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:21 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3263
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
The steps on the SM string action ruler are much easier for me to see than 64ths on a rule.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:09 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:40 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5821
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I do use a lighted magnifying headgear - really helps with the close work.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:10 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5493
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Chris Pile wrote:
I do use a lighted magnifying headgear - really helps with the close work.

My eyes ain't so good either, but I've found this recent acquisition mucho easy to use and read, in 1/100ths"
The white on black really jumps out.
Not so sure about the "Flat and Philips screwdrivers" right top and bottom though..... laughing6-hehe


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.



These users thanked the author Colin North for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:10 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 985
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I like the SM action gauge too (I use metric). I like that the thickness of the line is defined at 0.1mm so I can quickly differentiate between say, 1.25mm and 1.35mm, with no squinting.



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:10 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:15 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
SteveSmith wrote:
Ha, I also use just the 64th inch scale on the StewMac tool. I still find it a bit more convenient to use then my Starrett 6" ruler.


Yeah I think I need to get used to it. Like Chris was saying when you have been using one tool and one method for so long you develop a relationship with it.

The one thing about the SM gauge is that it sits across two frets so it's stable.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:10 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com