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Hi to all! i have a client that i built him a greek bouzouki and he is complaining all the time that the instrument "changes" but when i check it, the instrument action is at exact the same height as it was before...he also complains that its playability gets harder to play as he plays...to explain this he insists that after playing an hour or more, the sound doesnt sound the same...he says it becomes harder to play....the instrument has shellac on it and i dont have any problems playing it...any thoughts?

If he is an older guy like me, after playing for an hour his fingers are probably fatigued. Some instruments sound better after they "warm up", unusual for them to sound worse.

He is 34...hm maybe thanks for the reply !

Tell him the painful truth... It's HIM, not the bouzouki. If he can't provide hard evidence of his claims, blow him off. Musicians and artistes are - as a rule - flakes. Treat him thusly.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I should do it....this is what i believe too..maybe it is his mistake...i will get others players to play the instrument too...

You could try some science. Have him play it for a few seconds to make sure it feels good to him. Then you (or someone else if you don't live nearby) play it for an hour and bring it back to him. If it's already changed, then it's the instrument.

But after an hour of playing, I would certainly expect some ear and hand fatigue.

Better yet, have him play it, take all the measurements and record them. Then have someone else play for an hour, let him play it and repeat the measurements. That will demonstrate that 1) it is not the time the guitar is played that is causing him to notice a problem and 2) that nothing is changing.

If he is playing it for an hour, i’m Going to guess that long playing sessions are fairly normal for him. If he doesn’t have this issue on other instruments, there may be something about the feel of this new one that is causing fatigue differently than he is used to. Kind of like you feet getting tired when you walk around in a different pair of shoes. If you can’t figure out what, hopefully he will build up stamina for that particular instrument over time.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Some people are never satisfied and when something they perciev goes wrong they blame others. Sorry but what you have there is a PIA customer.

I'm 39. So in the same ballpark as your customer. I teach guitar lessons 4 days a week, 7 hours a day. I've noticed my D-18 sounds great at the beginning of the day and plays like a dream, by the time I knock off at 8:00, it sounds dull and buzzy, and is a real beast. Then sounds great again in the morning. The reality is if I'm teaching electric guitar I find the same thing. Playing the solo from Stairway to heaven for an hour, slowly going over and over every string bend is a sure recipe for a worn out hand. I can imagine a solid hour of double courses, especially if the strings are a little stiffer would be much the same.

The lay wisdom is that thicker strings sound better. But the reality is they only sound better if your fretting hand is strong enough, and I'm convinced not everyone's hands are built to develop that kind of strength. I look at pictures of Stevie Ray Vaughan's hands, (they're giant with thick, thick fingers) my fingers are long and slender. I play a lot, but talent limitations aside there's still no way I'll every get to the place where the gauges he played with are comfortable. I bring this up because I don't know how many times I've encountered players who seem to consider it a sign of manliness ( ) to use the thickest gauges possible.

Anyway to me it sounds like fatigue, but I don't envy you having to navigate that conversation with your customer. As one caveat to everything I mention above, I have noticed that different neck shapes cause my hand to fatigue in different ways, and the smaller the neck the worse it seems to me. My mandolin kills me, but its a terrible instrument that I only use once a week teaching.

Odd man out here.

How do you know that it's set-up properly and as such that it's not overly difficult to play? More specifically how many of these have you built, do you play Greek bouzoukis yourself so that you know what to expect?

What is the action measurements of the bass and treble strings from the frets measure respectively half the scale length from nut or bridge? If the player is not heavy handed I would set the action for the treble strings at around 4/64" at the 50% scale length point and the bass strings at around 5/64". This would be high for a light handed player and/or if the fret work is decent and it van go lower.

Lastly on these it's imperative just like with mandolins to have the nut slots cut skillfully and very low. Four courses of two strings can be very difficult for anyone to play if the nut slots have not been addressed well. You should be able to fret the high treble strings between the 2nd and 3rd fret and hold it fretted while observing the string distance over the 1st fret. That distance should only be .001" or so. This gap gets progressively greater as the string diameter increases.

Anyway I suspect that the player is getting fatigued but possibly with good reason. We see small builder bouzoukis from time to time, took one in today as a matter of fact and they are very rarely set-up properly which is why they are brought to us.

Well i am a bouzouki player myself...when i play the instrument it doesnt even sound the same as when he plays..i have played qlot of insteuments and also built around twenty(including baglamas, three string bouzoukis,and tzouras) I have worked more as a repair man and built numerous bridges the last 10 wears...so theaction is set pretty low 1.3 mm (normaly a bouzouki is set from 1,5 to 2 mm on the 12th fret)as he asked and all the notes are fretted without buzzing the scale is 67 cm . I will try everything said but i am tired more from hear the same things from the same customer...at first it is ok and when it is low "oh it is low action could we just raise it up?" And then "o now it is hard to play" and even when all are ok it magically changes... I mention again that this only happens with one customer...

OH. I have a client like that. I tell him whatever he wants to hear, and don't do a thing. When he gets it back, it's "the best it's ever played". Until the next time.... Like I said, FLAKE.

I've known him for decades, but the only reason I tolerate him is MONEY. He spends a grand or more with me every year (trust fund baby), and I get scads of work because he recommends me.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

So you know the feeling...i have made him 5 or so bridges....

1.3 mm is way too low and likely not even physically possible for a PLEKed instrument and 1.5 mm is pushing it too. I would question 1.5 to 2mm as a normal set-up for one of these, that's not accurate either it's also too low.

You made no mention of your nut slots and if player fatigue is the issue on an eight string instrument nut slots are usually one of the first two things checked along with action. Do you work in the trade or is this a hobby for you? Not trying to be insulting I'm laser focused on solving a client complaint which is something I have to do every day and have done many, many times prior in my work. We own a stringed instrument repair facility that fixes around 1,100 - 1,200 instruments annually. We are not a store and are only focused on professional repair. Our minimum service is a full set-up.

Why don't you post some pics of the instrument or your work please? Thanks.

i know it is too low but when i raise it he is complaining so a client is a client....dont get me wrong...i am here to learn and of cource i need your suggestions...i am allways willing to learn...for measuring the string height i made a string height gause with a dial indicaton so as the measurement be very accurate...i should say that i send this instrument to Kotse brothers in thessaloniki that are very famous bouzouki builders so as to set it up...when they send it back the player complained more...and i had to re setup it... some photos of my wok... the four string one is the instrument we are talking about...two of them...these bouzoukis dont have the bridges you see right now as i changed them for better ones.

Glad to hear that you are willing to learn.

These pics are useless I'm not looking for bling I want to see nut slots, frets, strings over frets so I can see height and a shot of the fret plane so as to give me a clue about the neck angle. Thanks for posting these but I'm not buying anything from you and these are glamor shots...

Another question I have for you is is your shop humidity controlled with an accurate, calibrated, checked hygrometer and kept at 40 - 50% relative humidity at all times during the building process?

I'm still not convinced that it's not issues with poor set-up, fret work, nut slots and subscribing to an action spec that's incorrect. Now I'm concerned that this instrument may in fact be moving with seasonal RH (relative humidity) changes. If it was not built in strict RH control the dimensional stability of the top will be all over the place rising and falling like a barometer when ever the humidity changes.

The funny thing about uppty clients is that at times, once in a while, believe it or not, who would have thought it, they can be correct. They may not always know what's wrong or even how to properly describe what's bothering them to others but they usually know when something sucks. I'll add that most clients in my experience don't look for trouble and likely want to be in this situation, dissatisfied with something that they purchased any more than we do as the producers of the products.

Clients are not always correct and they can be way out there too but that's when it's up to us to have some personal standards to not attempt to be all things to all folks. My business will and does refuse service to folks who for one reason or another there is not complete agreement on what the scope of work is to be, price, delivery, expectations and even dispelling myths that they may have. When someone wants to talk about tone we don't go there beyond the physics of the instrument. What they hear and what I hear are subjective and likely not always the same thing.

Let me know about the humidity control please too?

Well i will take some more photos from the instrument the next days ...i will post back...regarding the humidity control...there is none in my shop...no humidity control...the instrument was built in the summer and i live in a city which has a lake...if this is the problem indeed then i dont think it can be fixed...is it?

Thanks.

Wooden stringed instrument not built in controlled humidity and then subjected to different relative humidity move all over the place. Necks bow, tops rise and fall, we've even measured a small builder OM sized guitar that dimensionally changed 1/4" on the lower bout back and forth.

You're right it can't be fixed but as time passes the instrument's wood becomes more seasoned and the movement lessons for the most part unless subjected to extremes. It's possible that in time this one if this is an issue of unseasoned wood will stop moving again unless subjected to extremes. Other things to look forward to with wooden instruments that were not built with strict humidity control are top cracks, loose frets, necks that can't respond appropriately to the truss rod, loose braces, etc. It can be catastrophic and not repairable with any effort that is appropriate for the value that the instrument would represent if all were perfect or even acceptable.

These are built on the edge with long, thin necks but still under significant string tension and this string tension will contribute to the movement of the top.

If your client is complaining that this instrument seems to change... and you set it up and then he/she takes it and when they play at home or where ever it changes it sure sounds like unseasoned wood. Other contributors will be a set-up that can't be done properly because this is a moving target that won't hold still and if the neck angle is off on these all bets are off since it's on the long side and players use the entire neck on these.

The pics would be welcome but I think that we found at least one of possibly several underlying causes for the dissatisfaction with the instrument, no humidity control in the building process. Let's keep looking. It may be that your client is right and it's time to make this up to them.

I'm with Hesh on the pix. Beautiful work, but we can't see any evidence of the problem.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

To test the humidity issue you can place the instrument in a warm dry space for a few hours and measure the action, and then move it to a wetter, more humid place for a few hours and remeasure the action and see how much it changes (it should change some, but not be extremely different)

This is why I say I am not in the instrument business, I'm in the people business.... Sometimes the instrument isn't the problem it's the player.

My approach to these situations centers on the person on the other side of the instrument. I work with enough players of all different skill sets from novice to studio pros to know that set up isn't always one size fits all...... I am requested to set up instruments to specs I can barely play all the time by some of the more skilled and demanding professionals. I got a call one day about some fret work by a guy on tour that his road tech could not do. He sent the tech with the axe to the shop and a note with the set up specs which I laughed at as impossible..... he assured me these were the numbers and got the artist on the phone. Guy left and returned with 2 more instruments as examples of set up and what was required. And dang, there they were set up at action so insanly low i needed to measure with a feeler gauge at the 12th under the high e. So if a player tells you something, first thing you do is listen...

I would ask the client to spend a few hours with me at my shop. I would ask him to play for me. I would not record or analyze his playing beyond listening intently for the first few minutes. Recordings and analyzing will only alienate the client and make any rectification impossible. I would then go about some work while he played staying out of the way and fairly quiet and wait ....The client will start to point out when he notices what he notices typically. If it hasn't been an hour or so ask them to continue to see if they say it gets worse. Listen but do not speak or influence anything. Let them play and listen attentively. Make notes of what you hear or see in regards to either player or instrument and note any questions but hold any comments until after the performance is done and the player completely debriefed.

Immediately take the instrument and take new measurements of neck relief, tuning, action and compare to before play. Meanwhile have the client describe in detail what it is the notice and how it happens. Look at any areas that sound related to what the client is telling you. Now you can reevaluate your notes/questions and start asking and supposing. If It is a player issue like fatigue, point it out in a nice way, notes on playing posture etc. are helpful here. But still attempt to address the issue..... maybe the neck profile is in need of a tweek or the frets are the wrong height.... maybe Fret board radius? Or maybe you will find something actually wrong like a brace that only really separates and causes phase issues when the top warms up.

If you feel the instrument itself involves further investigation have them leave it and record/analyze in private when you can concentrate on it. The notes you made during the session will be very helpful here.

Good luck and I hope you and your client both come out of this happy.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Gorgeous instruments!!

I like all the replies!I really want to hear different opinions so as to become better...A lot of good comments in this post!Here in Greece you dont have the oportunity to study luthiery at a University,.,,it is a self taught art. I admire the work of the people in this forum! Allways ready to help !Thanks alot again!I will post back with new results influenced from your recommendations.