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Previous proponents of that theory have not been well treated by history.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Unlike Todd, those previous proponents lacked a sense of humor

Hold it there...the jury's out on that one:

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I bet it's noobies first that have the most accident's and then those of us who claim to be experienced. Confidence is a killer.


Semantics murrmac. I'm quite sure that any one who put there hand into a saw did not do it on purpose therefore it was an accident.

I do understand what you are saying to some degree none the less.

"fyi...SawStop has had a true Riving Knife as a standard feature since it was introduced. You would have to work pretty hard to have a kickback on it."

Obviously that isn't the saw stop part of the saw. Presumably it is overall competently put together.

I agree with Todd, riving is about a number of things that are not going to eliminate kick back, mostly blade pinch. The time I got hurt, it was all about a piece that was a little too thick, a little too wide, and a little too short. The wood was good quality cherry. It just rotated into the blade and came off the saw like a cannon ball. My bad, but I don't feel stupid about it. I had done many similar pieces of wood before, just always within a sweet spot.

"Are you suggesting, Tom, that a Mickey Mouse benchtop saw is somehow safer than a 3HP cabinet saw ?"

I don't remember saying anything about mickey

"I couldn't disagree more.

"Using an underpowered saw beyond its capacity (which will inevitably happen sooner or later) is a lot more dangerous than using an industrial saw at any level."

That sounds like using less saw than you need, which isn't what I said.

My current saw, is an Inca 350, and I also have a very minty all cast iron small Delta Beaver. The Swiss used to make a saw back in the 80s that was the size of a bench top saw, and 25K. I don't think there were ears or a tail on any of these.

The saw I learned on, my dad's, was a small Beaver, the contractor's version of my current back up saw. They go in minty condition for about 40 bucks, and the quality these days is as good as anything not from europe. My dad's had an underpowered 3/4 hp leeson, and if it kicked up, you could just hold onto the piece, brace yourself, and in a second or two the breaker would, trip. I never got hurt. I had a similar experience with the first bandsaw I bought, I would saw out bowl blanks with nothing under the saw for 3 inches around, and if it seized up, I could right the ship. With my Laguna, that just isn't wise.

I also feel the average large saw, particularly with accessory fence is too deep for a lot of people, hard to remain in balance and reach where the action is. The fences just made maters worse in this regard. I'm 6'3" in reach, so I figure it isn't any better for a lot of people. I like small saws, with enough oomph. I'm not saying larger saws won't get more work done in some situations, but I don't feel the need, and do feel the smaller saws are easier to handle. Whether that is actually safer depends on the dude. A lot of people are scared of table saws, and they can get a lot bigger than 10", that's a baby in industry. For people who have those concerns, I say, give a small saw a try. And save 99% of the bill to boot.

The accidents vs. no accidents thing, is an interesting discussion. Climbing having been my main interest when younger, I found those ideas interesting. At the end of the day, it is irrelevant in this thread, because the whether your finger gets there for one reason or another, this thread is about how to minimize the damage one way or another. My way is to not put my finger in the blade, and use the gear and insight I have to make that impossible. Another way is to use a saw with a flesh detector. The one advantage to that is that you can do most of the stuff I do, and have the sawstop also, while I can't have the sawstop on a saw without one.

Interestingly, in a lot of fields, it is found that safety gear does not always affect safety outcomes, or makes maters worse, or has other effects like deterring people from the activity. I don't pay enough attention to sawstop to know whether you could hit the blade at enough of a run to get well and truly gored before it kicked in, but it doesn't sound like it. The other issue would be whether people who see something like sawstop react by avoiding woodworking altogether, because it proves to them it is too dangerous for them to be involved. That effect has been well documented where helmet use is concerned.

I was wondering who'd bring that up, but I couldn't resist

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I was just wondering, has Saw Stop developed into a safety nazi thing. I made the bike helmet reference, which is a classic. You can be riding along at a lower speed than a jogger, and have some tool (not the useful kind), lean out his passenger side window, while driving without a belt, simultaneously texting, well over the speed limit, in a school zone, advise you to "get a helmet!" People with a helmet, and people who don't ride at all, are way more comfortable with the idea of every rider wearing a helmet. So I am kinda wondering whether SS (curious?) just has some part of the market, like any other brand or is starting to be a must have or you're nuts kinda thing.

I read a study where they found that drivers give cyclists much less space on the side of the road if they're wearing helmets VS not, and that it could be more dangerous to be wearing one due to the much increased chance of a close call with a car. Interesting to ponder. I'm pretty sure they had their results/conclusions backed up by accident rates in a country that had recently made helmets mandatory.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I think that helmet study was done in England a while back. I've been a serious cyclist since the early 70's and did a lot of racing in the 80's and early 90's. We used to train 3000+ miles/year on open roads, usually without helmets. I had the same impression. I think the study concluded that the motorists felt the helmeted riders were more experienced and predictable so they could give them less room while those without could swerve at any minute. Who knows? I thought it was because we looked more human. That said (soap box time) the best way to peacefully co-exist with motorists on the open road is to ride predictably, stop at stop signs, not run red lights, and in general obey all traffic rules. Those folks can turn you into a grease spot in a milliecond. I hate to admit it but I still ride without a helmet most of time although I have become old and very slow.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.